Was it wrong to hack and leak the Panama Papers? • Hacker News Board

Re: Was it wrong to hack and leak the Panama Papers?

#41

Post by Karunamon » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 5:22 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #27

basch wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you buy a set of rules, and then "play by the rules," I dont think you deserve kudos.

They lobby the government on their own behalf. You know who else does that? Everyone. That is how democracy works. No one blames a middle class person for supporting a candidate who plans to cut taxes on the middle class. Why do we blame the upper class for doing the same? Like I said, you can have a problem with the magnitude of influence they have and I think we should move to reduce that magnitude. But you are bei…

Am I allowed to be biased based on the results, rather than the actions that led to those results?

No raindrop feels responsible for the flood, but make it so people can't get out of the rain, and before long, everybody starts hating the rain.

Re: Was it wrong to hack and leak the Panama Papers?

#42

Post by lowbloodsugar » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 5:22 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #27

basch wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you buy a set of rules, and then "play by the rules," I dont think you deserve kudos.

They lobby the government on their own behalf. You know who else does that? Everyone. That is how democracy works. No one blames a middle class person for supporting a candidate who plans to cut taxes on the middle class. Why do we blame the upper class for doing the same? Like I said, you can have a problem with the magnitude of influence they have and I think we should move to reduce that magnitude. But you are bei…

Not that they have some influence. That they have all the influence. What you and I want has zero effect on congress. What the rich want, they get. So how you claim democracy works is demonstrably not how it works in the USA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tu32CCA_Ig

Re: Was it wrong to hack and leak the Panama Papers?

#43

Post by goodcanadian » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 5:23 PM UTC

Furthermore most of those individuals probably did nothing illegal, but rather they were trying to minimize their tax burden through (mostly) legal shell corporations.

I've looked into offshore banking and shell companies and the like a bit over the years. I'm not sure why; I guess I just have a fascination with business and finance. My conclusion has long been that, for an individual who intends to comply with the law, there is very little benefit to these structures. Generally, an individual can't legally lower their tax burden through the mechanism of an offshore shell company.

The legal versions of this involve genuine corporations headquartering in a business friendly location. They don't do it secretly, however. It is done in the open, and the corporation's owners (the shareholders) still have to pay their taxes on any dividends or capital gains in whatever jurisdiction they live in. You can argue whether or not Google should be legally allowed to move most of their income to Ireland, but that is a totally different scenario to a single person starting a company in Panama to hold his investments. In the United States, at least, a single shareholder company that does nothing other than hold investments is treated as a pass through for income tax purposes. I.e. you can't avoid taxes simply by keeping the money in the company. Moreover, even if you could avoid the tax on the company profits, you would still have to pay tax when your wanted to take the money out to actually spend it.

Re: Was it wrong to hack and leak the Panama Papers?

#44

Post by Karunamon » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 5:23 PM UTC

blainesch wrote: post #6

> probably did nothing illegal, but rather they were trying to minimize their tax burden through (mostly) legal Mostly legal and nothing illegal are contradicting.

Our law is not logically consistent - the same action can be legal in some instances yet illegal in others.

Re: Was it wrong to hack and leak the Panama Papers?

#45

Post by circlefavshape » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 5:23 PM UTC

kra34 wrote: post #29

adriand wrote: post #7

The difference between sharing information about ordinary people charged with crimes and about the rich and powerful, is that the rich and powerful people are rich and powerful. These are people who exert power over the rest of society and therefore their business dealings - especially shady, quasi-legal or outright illegal business dealings - are in the public interest. The fact some random person has been charged w…

So privacy protection isn't an absolute right, more of a relative / subjective one and the deciding authority on the subject should be the internet at large. Weird to hear that kind of thinking on hacker news...

Not unusual to hear "absolute" anything being questioned on HN

Re: Was it wrong to hack and leak the Panama Papers?

#46

Post by blueprint » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 5:24 PM UTC

It's quite simple. It's never wrong to reveal facts. It's always right to reveal facts. It's always wrong to hide facts.

Re: Was it wrong to hack and leak the Panama Papers?

#47

Post by chopin » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 5:24 PM UTC

cmdrfred wrote: post #16

If the net effect was good then the action was good.

The ends justify the means? The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Re: Was it wrong to hack and leak the Panama Papers?

#48

Post by circlefavshape » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 5:26 PM UTC

goodcanadian wrote: post #43

Furthermore most of those individuals probably did nothing illegal, but rather they were trying to minimize their tax burden through (mostly) legal shell corporations. I've looked into offshore banking and shell companies and the like a bit over the years. I'm not sure why; I guess I just have a fascination with business and finance. My conclusion has long been that, for an individual who intends to comply with the l…

Don't you only become liable to pay the tax when you repatriate the money? So perhaps you can spend it outside the US with impunity?

Re: Was it wrong to hack and leak the Panama Papers?

#49

Post by rev_bird » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 5:27 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #27

basch wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you buy a set of rules, and then "play by the rules," I dont think you deserve kudos.

They lobby the government on their own behalf. You know who else does that? Everyone. That is how democracy works. No one blames a middle class person for supporting a candidate who plans to cut taxes on the middle class. Why do we blame the upper class for doing the same? Like I said, you can have a problem with the magnitude of influence they have and I think we should move to reduce that magnitude. But you are bei…

>You know who else does that? Everyone.

I think I agree with you, but this rings false. The main (only?) way to effectively lobby the government is with money -- which gives the wealthy far more leverage. If one side is saying, "Choose policy A please," and the other side is saying, "Choose policy B, there's $30,000 in donations in it for you," I bet policy B gets a better look in. It turns into a vicious cycle when Policy B also happens to help that wealthy person hang onto more of their money.

I dislike it, but damn if I can't figure out an alternative.

Re: Was it wrong to hack and leak the Panama Papers?

#50

Post by circlefavshape » Mon, Apr 11, 2016, 5:27 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #12

>Yet somehow many of us approve when the victims are wealthy and higher status, as is the case with the Panama Papers. Furthermore most of those individuals probably did nothing illegal, but rather they were trying to minimize their tax burden through (mostly) legal shell corporations. This is a scary thing that has been building over the last 10 years. Wealthy people are vilified for being wealthy even when they pla…

Many people here (not me) think the magnitude difference is not a problem, and in fact contend that inequality is a positive