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What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

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Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#41

Post by mr_luc »

V-2 wrote: post #9
TrickedOut wrote: post #2

I really detest when software engineer salaries are compared to the salaries of the general population (often to cite how our sector is "overpaid"). Usually lacking from such simple comparisons: 1. Discussion of how software engineers have to go to college for 4 to 6+ years, but the general population is weighted towards those far fewer years of schooling 2. Discussion of downtime -- the amount of time software engne…

A lot of software engineers are autodidacts and never graduated in IT. I didn't (I have an MA in politics, obviously irrelevant to my profession). In general unemployment in IT is very low, and there's always a shortage of programmers, so job security is clearly above average. (And government administrations have IT departments, too). It's supply vs. demand, that's all there is to it. I'm not buying any of the above…

Yeah -- "force multiplier," and talk of how programmers can obsolete other jobs, is at least partly an argument that programmers 'deserve' their salaries, because they make society permanently more efficient.

That discussion feels imprecise, though. Are those really the reasons that programmer salaries are what they are? If there were 20x more programmers, would that change things?

Worse, it makes me want to avoid that whole side of the discussion, because it also sounds like justifying an economic fact on moral grounds.

Yes, supply and demand and perverse economic incentives sometimes result in high demand for things that aren't that beneficial to society as a whole. Personally, I happen to think that what programmers do is more beneficial to society than what Hedge Fund managers do. But I don't care to have a conversation about whether or not we 'deserve our rates.'

It's what supply and demand dictates; that much is definitely true.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#42

Post by jazzyk »

TrickedOut wrote: post #2

I really detest when software engineer salaries are compared to the salaries of the general population (often to cite how our sector is "overpaid"). Usually lacking from such simple comparisons: 1. Discussion of how software engineers have to go to college for 4 to 6+ years, but the general population is weighted towards those far fewer years of schooling 2. Discussion of downtime -- the amount of time software engne…

Exactly. Software salaries should be compared to doctors', lawyers' and other professions', as software engineering is a profession.

I bet you the comparisons would not look so good then.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#43

Post by agentgt »

I didn't find the data to be very compelling but the real world example with Pandas and D3 very helpful.

Probably irrelevant but I feel the article should probably be titled differently like "Using Pandas and D3 to get a rough....." as I'm not sure many good conclusions can be drawn from that dataset (I could be vastly wrong though?).

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#44

Post by DominikR »

TrickedOut wrote: post #2

I really detest when software engineer salaries are compared to the salaries of the general population (often to cite how our sector is "overpaid"). Usually lacking from such simple comparisons: 1. Discussion of how software engineers have to go to college for 4 to 6+ years, but the general population is weighted towards those far fewer years of schooling 2. Discussion of downtime -- the amount of time software engne…

It's about supply and demand. (not exclusively but still)

How could it be enforced that software developers can only earn the median income of the general population?

Passing new laws that set a limit? That would be completely crazy, you might as well just go and live in North Korea if you like that.

Why shouldn't private companies have the right and the freedom to pay more out of their own pocket (not from government funds) for certain employees?

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#45

Post by altotrees »

lordCarbonFiber wrote: post #15
TrickedOut wrote: post #2

I really detest when software engineer salaries are compared to the salaries of the general population (often to cite how our sector is "overpaid"). Usually lacking from such simple comparisons: 1. Discussion of how software engineers have to go to college for 4 to 6+ years, but the general population is weighted towards those far fewer years of schooling 2. Discussion of downtime -- the amount of time software engne…

I think the problem is further compounded by the fact that "software engineer" is woefully vague. Are we talking a highly educated Machine Learning specialist working at at top tier institution, or are we talking about the CRUD dev working for the local bank; or perhaps we're comparing generic IT that barely codes at all? The former might be underpaid, the latter maybe over paid, but they're all going to reported as…

Exactly... a "Software Engineer" in my experience can run the gamut from someone with a CS PhD to someone with an Associate Degree to someone who is self-taught. Sometimes pay is correlated with education, sometimes with experience, sometimes both and I have seen cases where neither is really a factor as a company is just looking for a warm body to fill a dev role.

Add to this the glut of contract positions in industry along with the wide range of pay there, and it becomes much harder to make an accurate assumption (at least for me in my head) of what software engineers should be making.

Googling "Software Engineer Payscale: brings up pages listing, 73, 78, 83, and 92 thousand per year. And I am leaving those roles with sub-titles like senior and principal off the list. That said, this is a cool idea and undertaking, especially the country comparisons.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#46

Post by bryanlarsen »

yread wrote: post #39
TrickedOut wrote: post #2

I really detest when software engineer salaries are compared to the salaries of the general population (often to cite how our sector is "overpaid"). Usually lacking from such simple comparisons: 1. Discussion of how software engineers have to go to college for 4 to 6+ years, but the general population is weighted towards those far fewer years of schooling 2. Discussion of downtime -- the amount of time software engne…

> downtime -- the amount of time software engneers spend unemployed (due to economic cycle, startup bankruptcy, downsizing, etc.) funny but from my circle of friends I never heard of anyone being unemployed and looking for job for more than a month. I myself had exactly 0 time of looking for a job in 12 years of working. I'm in Europe, though, we're ridiculously underpaid compared to the US I think. Very few people e…

12 years of working means you just missed the dot-com crash of 2000-2002.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#47

Post by jazzyk »

fecak wrote: post #38
glogla wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software engineers are like doctors or lawyers - long period of study on difficult (and in places where people pay for colleges expensive) schools, long hours, but good pay. So it makes sense to compare them with doctors and lawyers. Unlike doctors and lawyers, software engineers don't have any respect and are pretty much working class, but that's another story.

Doctors and lawyers require outside certification and extensive post-graduate education just to enter the industry . Comparing them to software engineers is not a useful comparison.

Only because they have powerful professional gilds like the AMA and bar associations to establish entry barriers to the industry.

And that's exactly what software professionals should do as well - have a strong professional body to represent us.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#48

Post by emodendroket »

maxerickson wrote: post #34
emodendroket wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software engineers are not "working class." Where did you get that idea?

Keep in mind that there's lots of different definitions of classes. Software reasonably fits in as a white collar job, which is working class. In general it's probably more interesting to discuss the various things people use to differentiate roles than it is to argue about what words should be used to describe the roles.

> Software reasonably fits in as a white collar job, which is working class.

That's a rather eccentric understanding of "working-class," which typically refers to blue collar workers.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#49

Post by emodendroket »

kspaans wrote: post #40
emodendroket wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software engineers are not "working class." Where did you get that idea?

I think the grandparent is playing a little loose with terms. By "working class", I believe they mean both: have to exchange their labour for money, and low social class (less respect from peers, say at a dinner party). Though obviously some software engineers "cash out" and then don't _need_ to work anymore, and many doctors would quickly run out of money if they stopped working.

OK, they're wage earners, then, not working-class. I don't know that their social status is really that low though.

Re: What Software Engineers Earn Compared to the General Population

#50

Post by nibs »

emodendroket wrote: post #28
nibs wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree. Status is attributed based on "How useful are you or can you be to me?". A doctor and lawyer could be very useful to me personally, selfishly. A software engineer tends to be very useful to capital (institutions, etc.) but not as useful to an individual personally. Facebook engineers have a lot of status - because people use Facebook personally all the time. A great engineer who programs stop lights, manufa…

I don't think that's right. A plumber or home health aide is pretty useful too.

I think it depends on the circles you travel in - those are the professions the most practical/dependable people from my area went into, so from my perspective they do get status to a certain degree, at least from my friends. There will always be the illusory gap between blue vs. white collar workers.
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