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Mass surveillance silences minority opinions, according to study

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Mass surveillance silences minority opinions, according to study

#41

Post by ars »

ywecur wrote: post #33
justsaysmthng wrote: post #27

HN is the most intelligent and open minded online community of this size that I know online. I have deep respect for you guys and girls and your opinions are always enlightening and thought provoking. I really feel much smarter because I have access to all these very valid points of view that you are surfacing. But even this community suffers from this strange phenomena of "group think" which leads me to go into this…

I couldn't agree more. I'm not sure how to solve the problem though, other than trying to teach people to treat the down vote button more respectfully. IMO there shouldn't be a down vote button at all, and to be honest I can't see its purpose. If a comment is trolling or being aggressive then you should flag it, so where is there room for the down vote button? It becomes quite intuitive to just use it for what you co…

The downvote button is supposed to be for non-constructive (i.e. stupid/useless) or offtopic messages. Flag is for spam and very very inflammatory stuff.

It is NOT supposed to be used for incorrect messages! (Or at least, if the message is grey, don't keep downvoting it just because there is a mistake in it. One downvote is enough.) And most especially it is not for disagreeing with someone - that's what the reply button is for.

Too many people come here from reddit with the mentality that downvote is for disagreement.

Re: Mass surveillance silences minority opinions, according to study

#42

Post by dhimes »

p4wnc6 wrote: post #31
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd encourage you to stop 'self-censoring'. What matters a few karma points, if you have something important to say? You'll find that often an initial knee-jerk downvoting can turn around half a day later, as more considerate users join the conversation.

I disagree. I have sometimes faced reply comments that are quite unreasonable and at times meant solely as insult. It's very rare here, but still a risk. But what's far worse is that the moderation of Hacker News functions with very little transparency. Even just Googling for the moderator `dang` turns up a lot of angry rants on other blogs and in other sections of the internet, full of people who feel wronged by bla…

I had no idea this kind of thing happened. I've never seen it (and known what I was looking at anyway). I have, however, looked at some hellbanned accounts to see what caused the hellbanning and sometimes it's not apparent- that is, replies that aren't particularly insulting or vapid or anything obviously antisocial. I figured they were banned for some other reason- like sneaking advertisements in or something (that are now removed).

Re: Mass surveillance silences minority opinions, according to study

#43

Post by p4wnc6 »

akerro wrote: post #3

Mass surveillance was created to work against minorities: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/feb/14/canada-en... https://overland.org.au/2014/07/surveillance-of-activists-is... https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/11/fbis-suicide-letter-dr...

This goes for working environments too -- where it may not be ethnic or political minorities being intrinsically oppressed, but instead anyone expressing minority opinions within the context of the organization.

Open-plan surveillance workspaces are meant to produce monoculture, and a whole generation of programmers has essentially gifted that opportunity to employers by failing to insist upon minimally acceptable working conditions, in favor of an extension of college / dorm life.

One wonders why a staff that is uniformly willing to give up personal time for Whisky Thursday isn't viewed as a liability, in terms of lack of thought diversity.

Re: Mass surveillance silences minority opinions, according to study

#44

Post by ars »

justsaysmthng wrote: post #27

HN is the most intelligent and open minded online community of this size that I know online. I have deep respect for you guys and girls and your opinions are always enlightening and thought provoking. I really feel much smarter because I have access to all these very valid points of view that you are surfacing. But even this community suffers from this strange phenomena of "group think" which leads me to go into this…

If you don't have a bunch of heavily downmodded comments then you are doing it wrong.

Wear them as a badge of honor, that you speak your mind.

Re: Mass surveillance silences minority opinions, according to study

#45

Post by 13thLetter »

im_down_w_otp wrote: post #21

Interesting. I would expect it to also foster radicalism. By creating an environment where only the most-vocal, least-risk-averse adherents to a particular way of thinking are willing to risk making their ideas known. If you make an environment where only those who are willing to face death, imprisonment, or harassment for their ideas are the ones doing the talking, then you make the only voice being heard be one of…

Yep, you can see that happening right now in various tech fields. The scope of opinions that one can publicly hold without risking doxxing and mob harassment has been narrowed tremendously, with the result that while many have been bullied into resentful silence the ones still willing to talk have been thoroughly radicalized.

Re: Mass surveillance silences minority opinions, according to study

#46

Post by BasDirks »

justsaysmthng wrote: post #27

HN is the most intelligent and open minded online community of this size that I know online. I have deep respect for you guys and girls and your opinions are always enlightening and thought provoking. I really feel much smarter because I have access to all these very valid points of view that you are surfacing. But even this community suffers from this strange phenomena of "group think" which leads me to go into this…

Besides the ones you mentioned, are there other such topics that tend to be taboo? I would like to keep an eye out, just for curiosity's sake.

I don't know if high intelligence within a group bodes well for freedom of ideas. Intelligence itself is a form of censorship.

Re: Mass surveillance silences minority opinions, according to study

#47

Post by 123jay7 »

cowardlydragon wrote: post #17
ChuckMcM wrote: post #13

This suggests we should implement mass surveillance of law enforcement personnel. If, as many people assert, the bad behavior of law enforcement is the actions of a minority, then mass surveillance of law enforcement should provide a chilling effect on that minority and result in fewer examples of these abuses. Somehow I don't think that argument would win the day though.

The majority is not an absolute number, but more those with the majority of political power... An important distinction to understand.

He asked about his father, not about his "name". What kind of - where is your mother, anyway?

Re: Mass surveillance silences minority opinions, according to study

#48

Post by Kenji »

justsaysmthng wrote: post #27

HN is the most intelligent and open minded online community of this size that I know online. I have deep respect for you guys and girls and your opinions are always enlightening and thought provoking. I really feel much smarter because I have access to all these very valid points of view that you are surfacing. But even this community suffers from this strange phenomena of "group think" which leads me to go into this…

I am not sure if the HN community is intelligent and open-minded or if it's just filled with people who usually think like I do and are close-minded.

Re: Mass surveillance silences minority opinions, according to study

#49

Post by kirykl »

justsaysmthng wrote: post #27

HN is the most intelligent and open minded online community of this size that I know online. I have deep respect for you guys and girls and your opinions are always enlightening and thought provoking. I really feel much smarter because I have access to all these very valid points of view that you are surfacing. But even this community suffers from this strange phenomena of "group think" which leads me to go into this…

Maybe there's something to be said that the users with downvote ability have earned enough karma through upvotes. The community determines in this way that the only ones that can silence others are those with majority valued opinions

Re: Mass surveillance silences minority opinions, according to study

#50

Post by eternalban »

justsaysmthng wrote: post #27

HN is the most intelligent and open minded online community of this size that I know online. I have deep respect for you guys and girls and your opinions are always enlightening and thought provoking. I really feel much smarter because I have access to all these very valid points of view that you are surfacing. But even this community suffers from this strange phenomena of "group think" which leads me to go into this…

> even this community suffers from this strange phenomena of "group think"

There is absolutely no social cost for downvoting without commenting.

Adding costs and accountability:

    - force comment box on downvotes

    - deduct from karma

    - flagging only
Is it important for HN's community to have a "psychologically safe" [1] at this point in time?

I can not think of a more critical time for the "STEM" crowd to have a viable forum of discussion.

Topics ranging from the expected behavior of tall steel structures subject to excessive heat (ahem), to digital rights, cryto, crypto-currency, voting systems, genetics, AI, ..., can all benefit from informed discussion and debate.

HN membership, considering the depth and range observed, is entirely capable of this.

[1]: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/28/magazine/what-google-learn... -- remember this one, HN?

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