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Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

theguardian.com

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Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#41

Post by lhnz »

forgotpwtomain wrote: post #33
lhnz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The article never made this point. All it said is that they kill more people. If that was the case they would not have mentioned terrorism. The comparison to terrorism exists because it makes the article travel better between members of the Blue Tribe who think anxieties over terrorism are overblown and better gun control would be good. Remove the link to terrorism and the article would have had less currency withi…

>>> This doesn't mean toddlers are more dangerous than terrorists. It means there are more toddlers. >> The article never made this point. All it said is that they kill more people. In which case it would seem reasonable to ask, can we save more lives, more effectively with enhanced gun control then with enhanced anti-terrorism measures.. > If that was the case they would not have mentioned terrorism. Your first stat…

Sorry for being unclear.

My point is that the article and subsequent comments by you and threatofrain establish a frame in which stressors are measured solely by their impact on fatality. The extra attention given to terrorism relates more to the conservative fear of losing their 'way of life'. Attempting to measure both of these things solely in relation to their impact on fatality misunderstands the reasons for fear over terrorism and creates a communication problem between the left and right.

I did not invoke your second point as I fully agree with it.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#42

Post by samdoidge »

pjc50 wrote: post #12

Since this is today's gun argument thread, I'll just point out that the UK is currently commemorating the 20th anniversary of its first and last "mass shooting" incident, at a school in Dunblane, Scotland. The ensuing total ban on handguns and further restriction on gun licensing mean that mass shootings are nonexistant, firearm murders are extremely rare (about one per year in a country of 60m), shooting of suspects…

> (about one per year in a country of 60m)

This source shows the lowest number of gun deaths a year from 1996 as 130. Actual murders will be lower than this figure, but do you have a source? http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/192/total_num...

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#43

Post by akhatri_aus »

jjoonathan wrote: post #23
pjc50 wrote: post #12

Since this is today's gun argument thread, I'll just point out that the UK is currently commemorating the 20th anniversary of its first and last "mass shooting" incident, at a school in Dunblane, Scotland. The ensuing total ban on handguns and further restriction on gun licensing mean that mass shootings are nonexistant, firearm murders are extremely rare (about one per year in a country of 60m), shooting of suspects…

I don't think it worked out quite the way you said: http://crimeresearch.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-b... Obligatory un-zeroed-axis warning, but the point stands.

It certainly doesn't feel anything like the charts in this article.

I've heard of crimes with that damned pocket knife but never a gun.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#44

Post by IkmoIkmo »

jfaucett wrote: post #16

Using the argument form of this article you could make any number of outrageously nonsensical claims. The form is basically X does Y more than Z, where X occurs vastly more than Z in some population. Examples: 1. white caucasians commit more crime in the Canada than all other ethnic groups combined! 2. In Sweden the common cold is more lethal than HIV! In my opinion article exemplifies the antithesis of a decent argu…

No it's not 'just' an 'X does more Y than Z'. There's more that's implied.

i.e., there's a Z which does Y, and it's a tiny, tiny problem that nobody considers to be an actual threat. e.g., toddlers murdering people.

And then there's an X, which is even less dangerous than that, namely terrorism.

And then there's a response to this X, which has trampled on basic civil rights, privacy and the constitution in the form of mass surveillance, and shows few signs of slowing. Further, there's another response which is inciting hysteria, fear, ignorance and increasingly racism towards a minority who hate terrorism as much as anyone.

That's what this article implies, and it's completely true. It presents an absurdity of threat vs response that has lost all sensibility, an absurdity that, though has been mentioned before many times in various articles, still hasn't resonated with the general public and media.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#45

Post by youngone »

akhatri_aus wrote: post #43
jjoonathan wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it worked out quite the way you said: http://crimeresearch.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-b... Obligatory un-zeroed-axis warning, but the point stands.

It certainly doesn't feel anything like the charts in this article. I've heard of crimes with that damned pocket knife but never a gun.

> Data doesn't fit my pre-conceptions. Better ignore the data.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#46

Post by mtgx »

cm2187 wrote: post #10

Terrorism is like a mosquito in a room. Hearing its buzz will drive people nuts but the actual harm caused is negligible. But right now people are pretty much ready to throw their basic rights and freedom away in the hope it will make the buzz go away. The worst part is that attacks like the Paris attacks are pretty much impossible to prevent unless we transform our democracy into a totalitarian state...

> unless we transform our democracy into a totalitarian state

The irony is that in totalitarian states terrorism increases, not decreases. Because then even more people have a reason to hate their own totalitarian leaders.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#49

Post by akhatri_aus »

youngone wrote: post #45
akhatri_aus wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It certainly doesn't feel anything like the charts in this article. I've heard of crimes with that damned pocket knife but never a gun.

> Data doesn't fit my pre-conceptions. Better ignore the data.

I'm sorry, what I was trying to say was it'd be enlightening to see a news article (links?) on someone killed by a gun to correlate truth to anything with those stats or the implied representation anyway.

Also it looks like you created a throwaway to say this. It says a lot about your conviction on what you're saying.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#50

Post by cm2187 »

mtgx wrote: post #46
cm2187 wrote: post #10

Terrorism is like a mosquito in a room. Hearing its buzz will drive people nuts but the actual harm caused is negligible. But right now people are pretty much ready to throw their basic rights and freedom away in the hope it will make the buzz go away. The worst part is that attacks like the Paris attacks are pretty much impossible to prevent unless we transform our democracy into a totalitarian state...

> unless we transform our democracy into a totalitarian state The irony is that in totalitarian states terrorism increases, not decreases. Because then even more people have a reason to hate their own totalitarian leaders.

I am not sure that's true. Crime under totalitarian regimes is usually very low, because the level of control and delation makes it almost impossible to get away with it.
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