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San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

nytimes.com

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Re: San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

#41

Post by pjlegato »

mcbutterbunz wrote: post #16
1024core wrote: post #3

Every time the topic comes up, people from across the country start commenting on SF's homelessness woes. I live in SF, and consider our homeless situation unique. There are lots of mentally ill people, who have been hanging around for many years, thanks to good weather and generous people (and the easy availability of some drugs). Most of these people are NOT your typical "lost my job, lost my apartment, and hence a…

> They simply cannot take care of themselves. And no one else wants to, which is part of the problem.

According to the article, the City of San Francisco spends $242 million annually to do just that, and the City of New York spends over $1 billion to do just that.

It's not that nobody wants to. Apparently the ways they are trying to take care of them now are not particularly effective.

Re: San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

#42

Post by pj_mukh »

gearoidoc wrote: post #33
martinshen wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most visible homeless and those we consider "the problem" certainly may be those who "cannot take care of themselves". However, the majority do not fit this category. I may be naive but I think we should be tackling the homeless with mental problems first. While I certainly have more empathy to those who have "lost my job, lost my apartment, and hence am homeless", I am unconfident that traditional support servic…

> the mentally ill make everyone (especially those homeless who have fallen on hard times) less safe. Statistics please.

Careful. Last time I did this, I got downvoted and detached to hell.

I actually really want to know what the statistics are. If it's "mostly" mentally ill people maybe deal with that problem first, if mentally ill is the corner case (a loud one), then maybe not.

Re: San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

#43

Post by pjlegato »

martinshen wrote: post #17
1024core wrote: post #3

Every time the topic comes up, people from across the country start commenting on SF's homelessness woes. I live in SF, and consider our homeless situation unique. There are lots of mentally ill people, who have been hanging around for many years, thanks to good weather and generous people (and the easy availability of some drugs). Most of these people are NOT your typical "lost my job, lost my apartment, and hence a…

The most visible homeless and those we consider "the problem" certainly may be those who "cannot take care of themselves". However, the majority do not fit this category. I may be naive but I think we should be tackling the homeless with mental problems first. While I certainly have more empathy to those who have "lost my job, lost my apartment, and hence am homeless", I am unconfident that traditional support servic…

There is no need for scare quotes around "the problem." When people regularly walk up to you on the street and start ranting obscenities at you for no particular reason, that is a problem, full stop, no scare quotes.

Source: it happened to me yesterday in downtown San Francisco. It's happened numerous times before. It's a problem.

Re: San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

#44

Post by 20years »

adwf wrote: post #25
20years wrote: post #10

This is very similar to the homeless situation where I live. We had to recently break up a camp in one of the beach communities too. Many, many drug addicts (especially meth) and mentally ill (possibly due to drugs). Simply providing shelter is not the solution imo. The challenge is so much bigger than that. Drug rehab services need to be provided or even required. The easy access to drugs also needs to be addressed.…

> If we want to solve this problem, we need to provide shelter along with drug rehab services & require weekly clean drug tests as a requirement to keep the shelter. Yes and no. The question is, are people becoming homeless because they're drug addicts or becoming drug addicts because they are homeless? If it's the former then yes, clean drug tests - as a requirement to compel them to get better - might help. If it's…

"I venture to say that most drug addicts don't actually want to be that way"

I agree with this which is why I think we should offer the support they need to get better. I also feel that people need to be held accountable. If you are not held accountable for staying clean when you are provided the support you need, it will be easy to go right back into it.

Re: San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

#45

Post by pjlegato »

beatpanda wrote: post #7
1024core wrote: post #3

Every time the topic comes up, people from across the country start commenting on SF's homelessness woes. I live in SF, and consider our homeless situation unique. There are lots of mentally ill people, who have been hanging around for many years, thanks to good weather and generous people (and the easy availability of some drugs). Most of these people are NOT your typical "lost my job, lost my apartment, and hence a…

I suggest looking at the official data on this subject[1]. The vast majority of San Francisco's homeless people are, in fact, people who were living in SF and paying rent, lost one or more jobs, and subsequently became homeless. I would also suggest you read the literature[2] concerning "putting people in a mental institution" against their will, because that practice has a long and sordid history and there are many,…

Leaving people with severe mental illnesses who cannot take care of themselves in any sense to rot on the streets and fend for themselves is far more sordid (and has a far longer history.)

Re: San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

#46

Post by jkyle »

fosk wrote: post #31
aetherson wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I do support infill development, San Francisco is already a dense city (the second-densest city in the US after New York City, unless you count much smaller municipalities), and the idea that everyone must, must, must be given the opportunity to live in San Francisco proper is naïve, as is the idea that any but a tiny minority of the homeless in the city would ever be able to afford any kind of market-rate hous…

> There is Daly City and Colma and Millbrae and so forth down to San Jose Sure, but then the city better start spending some billions to improve the infrastructure and public transportation: BART is a joke by modern standards, slow and dirty; the Caltrain is even worse with its diesel-powered locomotives like it's 1899.

> Sure, but then the city better start spending some billions to improve the infrastructure and public transportation

Now you're onto the crux of the issue.

People, generally, don't want to commute more than 30m each way. The further away you get from that time frame, the more people "drop out" or start sacrificing in other areas (e.g. housing). Having reliable passive transit such as trains or subways extends this time window some.

Build a bullet train that gets you from Modesto (random town 90 miles away) to S.F. in 30m and watch how many families are perfectly willing to buy a 4 bedroom house for 350k and commute every day. Not to mention all the towns in between.

edit

The LA -> SF bullet train's a good start if it lives up to the hype.

Re: San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

#47

Post by 20years »

dreamdu5t wrote: post #23

Why is that a problem that needs solving? Quite honestly I do not give a shit if someone is choosing to use drugs and live in the street... And the idea that they just need "addiction services" is laughable. Whatever. I don't give two shits about some alcoholic or methhead, and the idea that they have no control over it and need to be "helped" is perverted.

Coming from a place where a loved one of mine got the "addiction services" support he needed and is now thriving, I can't agree with you.

Addiction services do help IF the person wants help and IS held accountable.

Re: San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

#48

Post by 1024core »

gearoidoc wrote: post #33
martinshen wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most visible homeless and those we consider "the problem" certainly may be those who "cannot take care of themselves". However, the majority do not fit this category. I may be naive but I think we should be tackling the homeless with mental problems first. While I certainly have more empathy to those who have "lost my job, lost my apartment, and hence am homeless", I am unconfident that traditional support servic…

> the mentally ill make everyone (especially those homeless who have fallen on hard times) less safe. Statistics please.

You'd be hard pressed to find any, other than anecdata.

Yesterday, a small woman was assaulted (just pushed hard, luckily she did not fall) in front of me by a woman who was clearly off kilter (rambling to herself, shouting periodically to noone, etc.).

One day, a similarly off-balance gentleman started hurling obscenities at me and threatened to punch me. He was a foot away from me, and I was on the MUNI train, so nowhere to go. I stared him down as his spittle flew in my direction, and he walked away. Coincidentally(?) I came down with the worst throat infection a few days later.

And then another time a guy who had severely bad hygiene problems got on the N train, which was already crowded.... and then the train goes into the tunnel before Inner Sunset. I have never felt so nauseated in my life. As soon as the train got out of the tunnel, half the carriage emptied, with people gasping for air.

And then one time a mentally ill person (from appearance) got on the bus, stood behind a young woman and started slowly humping her. I would have done something, but he was huge.

And then there was this time a mentally ill guy was walking down the sidewalk, totally in his own world... but the asshole grabbed my crotch as I walked by.

In contrast, I have never seen such a thing being done by a non-mentally-ill person.

Make up your own mind.

Re: San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

#49

Post by beatpanda »

pjlegato wrote: post #45
beatpanda wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suggest looking at the official data on this subject[1]. The vast majority of San Francisco's homeless people are, in fact, people who were living in SF and paying rent, lost one or more jobs, and subsequently became homeless. I would also suggest you read the literature[2] concerning "putting people in a mental institution" against their will, because that practice has a long and sordid history and there are many,…

Leaving people with severe mental illnesses who cannot take care of themselves in any sense to rot on the streets and fend for themselves is far more sordid (and has a far longer history.)

I agree, but that still doesn't make involuntary commitment a good idea

Re: San Francisco Orders Homeless to Leave Tent Camp

#50

Post by dang »

dreamdu5t wrote: post #23

Why is that a problem that needs solving? Quite honestly I do not give a shit if someone is choosing to use drugs and live in the street... And the idea that they just need "addiction services" is laughable. Whatever. I don't give two shits about some alcoholic or methhead, and the idea that they have no control over it and need to be "helped" is perverted.

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