Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock the iPhone • Hacker News Board

Re: Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock the iPhone

#41

Post by saurik » Tue, Feb 23, 2016, 9:40 AM UTC

acqq wrote: post #34

saurik wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reality is that Apple already has unfettered access to this device: they left themselves a backdoor to which only they have the key, in the form of a "secure" update mechanism that is so "secure" that even the user can't control it, only Apple can. To me the actual question here is whether the FBI should be allowed to ask and then force Apple to use the backdoor Apple built into their product; Apple painting this…

> from the perspective of Apple, as nothing more than a ribbon, as Apple already has "unfettered access to [your] data" No! Since iOS8 Apple intentionally encrypts the user's data on the phone in a way that even they don't have access to them. They have access to the hardware, to be able to reconfigure it, but not the encrypted data on the phone. Because the data is encrypted, intentionally so. And they have access t…

This is an iPhone 5C, which does not have the "secure enclave" feature, and it isn't even clear helps as Apple has stated to reporters that it is possible to do what the FBI wants, so we know the software on that component must be mutable. If it was actually impossible to do the thing the FBI wanted them to do then we would not even be having this discussion today: Apple would just say "can't, sorry" and the FBI would be forced to move on with their lives as nothing Apple could do would help them get access to the device.

Re: Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock the iPhone

#42

Post by saurik » Tue, Feb 23, 2016, 9:41 AM UTC

NEDM64 wrote: post #36

saurik wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reality is that Apple already has unfettered access to this device: they left themselves a backdoor to which only they have the key, in the form of a "secure" update mechanism that is so "secure" that even the user can't control it, only Apple can. To me the actual question here is whether the FBI should be allowed to ask and then force Apple to use the backdoor Apple built into their product; Apple painting this…

Sure. It's a Backdoor that only you and Apple know of. Right?

No: it is a backdoor that everyone in the world knows of, including the FBI, which is why this is even a question. Apple is the only party allowed to change the software running on the device, using their software update encryption key: this is a backdoor into at least this device (an iPhone 5C).

Re: Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock the iPhone

#43

Post by acqq » Tue, Feb 23, 2016, 9:42 AM UTC

zer01 wrote: post #7

>"It is no different than [the question of] should anybody ever have been able to tell the phone company to get information, should anybody be able to get at bank records,” he said. “Let’s say the bank had tied a ribbon round the disk drive and said ‘don’t make me cut this ribbon because you’ll make me cut it many times’." Seriously? It's absolutely different (not to mention his ribbon analogy makes no sense at all).…

> Here's hoping that the iPhone 7 has a secure enclave that either 1.) deletes keys on firmware flash, or 2.) doesn't allow it to be upgraded ever.

If you hope for that, consider the legal base on which FBI made the current request: All Writs Act, which is, in full:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Writs_Act

"(a) The Supreme Court and all courts established by Act of Congress may issue all writs necessary or appropriate in aid of their respective jurisdictions and agreeable to the usages and principles of law.

(b) An alternative writ or rule nisi may be issued by a justice or judge of a court which has jurisdiction."

Note it's not any kind of law that regulates any form of encryption or communication security, a lot of laws with such topics were fought through the years! It's just "we can demand anything we want."

Then consider how long such Secure Enclave will last if this precedent on such use of this Act is now to be made.

Re: Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock the iPhone

#44

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Feb 23, 2016, 9:42 AM UTC

NEDM64 wrote: post #36

saurik wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reality is that Apple already has unfettered access to this device: they left themselves a backdoor to which only they have the key, in the form of a "secure" update mechanism that is so "secure" that even the user can't control it, only Apple can. To me the actual question here is whether the FBI should be allowed to ask and then force Apple to use the backdoor Apple built into their product; Apple painting this…

Sure. It's a Backdoor that only you and Apple know of. Right?

[deleted]

Re: Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock the iPhone

#45

Post by repsilat » Tue, Feb 23, 2016, 9:42 AM UTC

StreamBright wrote: post #10

I disagree with Gates on this one, I think in the US that has common law legal systems, setting the precedent by unlocking (if possible) the iphone in question would be disastrous.

Legal precedents are only set in legal judgements, aren't they? I think Apple unlocking the phone would only set a cultural precedent.

Re: Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock the iPhone

#46

Post by arihant » Tue, Feb 23, 2016, 9:42 AM UTC

No, Mr. Gates, cutting this ribbon would mean that all the other ribbons are cut by default. Not just by your allies, but by your not-so-friends in North Korea.

It's not about cutting a ribbon. It's about putting a hard drive in a box that self destructs when you try to open it. What your friends are asking is not to cut a ribbon, but to make the box open safely with a master key. Your government could not even stop wikileaks and your own employee to turn against you -- how do you expect the world to trust them with master key?

Overreaching beyond means and have it blow up in the face is quickly becoming an American virtue in the 21st century.

Re: Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock the iPhone

#47

Post by camillomiller » Tue, Feb 23, 2016, 9:42 AM UTC

chroma wrote: post #30

abpavel wrote: post #17

Bill Gates: "Let's say the bank had tied a ribbon round the disk drive and said 'don't make me cut this ribbon because you'll make me cut it many times'" ...Well, that sums up his understanding of the the encryption technology. Then what are we to expect of the general public, when even Bill Gates sees a "ribbon around a disk drive"?

I thought it was quite clear that Gates was making an analogy for non-technical readers. He doesn't really think of encrypted devices that way. Unfortunately, there's no way Gates can win here. If he uses technical language, journalists and/or readers won't understand. Or worse: they'll misunderstand his views. If he uses simplistic analogies, he invites mockery from technical readers.

Yes, but in the second case he'll win the sympathy of the laymen who will think "hey, if even bill gates says they're wrong, maybe they're wrong. The guy's a genius". These people are less vocal than tech readers, but they vastly outnumber them.

Re: Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock the iPhone

#48

Post by studentrob » Tue, Feb 23, 2016, 9:43 AM UTC

Gates does some great things but he's not thinking far enough into the future here.

If our law enforcement cannot understand that terrorists will simply switch to use another encryption tool, then we have a much bigger problem than unlocking a single iPhone. Our security force does not know how to keep us safe. I'd rather they figure that out sooner than later.

Re: Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock the iPhone

#49

Post by brbsix » Tue, Feb 23, 2016, 9:44 AM UTC

saurik wrote: post #25

zer01 wrote: post #7

>"It is no different than [the question of] should anybody ever have been able to tell the phone company to get information, should anybody be able to get at bank records,” he said. “Let’s say the bank had tied a ribbon round the disk drive and said ‘don’t make me cut this ribbon because you’ll make me cut it many times’." Seriously? It's absolutely different (not to mention his ribbon analogy makes no sense at all).…

The reality is that Apple already has unfettered access to this device: they left themselves a backdoor to which only they have the key, in the form of a "secure" update mechanism that is so "secure" that even the user can't control it, only Apple can. To me the actual question here is whether the FBI should be allowed to ask and then force Apple to use the backdoor Apple built into their product; Apple painting this…

Doesn't the secure update mechanism simply permit access to the system partition? This late in the game, how can that possibly give Apple user filesystem keys? Those require the PIN or password. An OS update at this point can only permit rapid brute force iteration. Obviously "unfettered access to the device" is really useful to steal user keys while the device is unlocked, but it's not so helpful after the fact.

Re: Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock the iPhone

#50

Post by majewsky » Tue, Feb 23, 2016, 9:44 AM UTC

jonnybgood wrote: post #8

citizensixteen wrote: post #2

I do not understand why Bill Gates would take a contrary position to Silicon Valley / tech community on this issue. Any insight into why he is taking this stance? What I have found even more confusing is why the FBI hasn't asked the NSA for help. The NSA's thousands of skilled hackers simply can't break into an old iPhone?

That's not how the NSA operates. The NSA is not a tech support hotline for the Feds. The NSA has its own mission set which its resources go towards. If it doesn't fall within that mission set, then NSA don't care. This iPhone doesn't fall within that mission set.

Shamir's 3rd Law of Computer Security: "Cryptography is typically bypassed, not penetrated."