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EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote

bbc.co.uk

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Re: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote

#41

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

aembleton wrote: post #34
TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #29

This is going to have wide-reaching consequences no matter what way it goes. Off the top of my head, potential issues include: * Combined with the sovereign debt crisis and the migrant crisis, this could be the end of the EU (perhaps unlikely, but) * The UK leaving the EU with the Republic of Ireland staying in (there's little support for RoI leaving) could create problems in Northern Ireland * The UK voting to leave…

Membership of the EU requires you to sign up to the ECHR, but countries outside of the EU are also members of the ECHR. We can continue to be part of the ECHR without being inside the EU. By leaving the EU, all our existing legislation that has been enacted will stay. It just means that our elected government will have the power to remove legislation without getting permission from unelected commissioners. Under the…

> Membership of the EU requires you to sign up to the ECHR, but countries outside of the EU are also members of the ECHR. We can continue to be part of the ECHR without being inside the EU.

Oh I am well aware. I am referring to the Conservatives' manifesto promise to repeal the Human Rights Act, which so far has been kicked into the long grass due to opposition and infeasibility. But since the ECHR is a European thing, EU or no, I think it will inevitably be brought up again with the referendum.

(Side note: The EU is actually trying to join the ECHR as member in itself. Wondering when that process will be finished.)

> By leaving the EU, all our existing legislation that has been enacted will stay.

Sure, most of it, but what of it? We nonetheless lose participation in the Single Market etc.

Re: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote

#42

Post by aembleton »

antillean wrote: post #28
aembleton wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK and Ireland may both want to preserve the Common Travel Area, but I don't think Ireland has any say in the matter. It will be up to the European Union, or more accurately the commissioners.

Eh, what? Hasn't the ROI had a say up to now? What's about to change? Is the EC about to invade the ROI?

The EU requires protection of it's external border by member states. The ROI would be required to protect it's border with the UK. If it failed to do so, the EU could withhold funding from it, in effect fining them.

Re: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote

#43

Post by Silhouette »

aembleton wrote: post #34
TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #29

This is going to have wide-reaching consequences no matter what way it goes. Off the top of my head, potential issues include: * Combined with the sovereign debt crisis and the migrant crisis, this could be the end of the EU (perhaps unlikely, but) * The UK leaving the EU with the Republic of Ireland staying in (there's little support for RoI leaving) could create problems in Northern Ireland * The UK voting to leave…

Membership of the EU requires you to sign up to the ECHR, but countries outside of the EU are also members of the ECHR. We can continue to be part of the ECHR without being inside the EU. By leaving the EU, all our existing legislation that has been enacted will stay. It just means that our elected government will have the power to remove legislation without getting permission from unelected commissioners. Under the…

I expect if we vote to leave, there will be another referendum in 2017 after the EU has had some serious introspection about the democratic deficit. I would expect them to try to keep the UK as a member.

In the news yesterday, before the deal was announced, there was talk of incorporating a specific guarantee that any decision this time would be final, and the EU would not then come back to the UK offering an improved deal later, precisely because of the issue you raised there.

Any mention of that has been notably absent in every news report I've seen so far today. Does anyone know what happened there?

Re: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote

#44

Post by antillean »

aembleton wrote: post #26
k-mcgrady wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shocked I wasn't aware of that! I still think it'll be pretty bad from a business perspective with Northern Ireland losing companies to the Republic and more difficult trading between the two.

More concerning will be the future of the Good Friday Agreement and the peace in the area.

True.

Re: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote

#45

Post by antillean »

aembleton wrote: post #34
TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #29

This is going to have wide-reaching consequences no matter what way it goes. Off the top of my head, potential issues include: * Combined with the sovereign debt crisis and the migrant crisis, this could be the end of the EU (perhaps unlikely, but) * The UK leaving the EU with the Republic of Ireland staying in (there's little support for RoI leaving) could create problems in Northern Ireland * The UK voting to leave…

Membership of the EU requires you to sign up to the ECHR, but countries outside of the EU are also members of the ECHR. We can continue to be part of the ECHR without being inside the EU. By leaving the EU, all our existing legislation that has been enacted will stay. It just means that our elected government will have the power to remove legislation without getting permission from unelected commissioners. Under the…

Gove's statement today -- http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-... -- sounds to me like he'd also like the UK to leave the ECHR.

Re: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote

#46

Post by edko »

The rest of the EU countries should also hold a referendum about granting the UK these special conditions. It is very likely that, event after getting these privileges, they will act as if they were making us a favor to stay. Just leave. Maybe a free Scotland joins back in a few years.

Re: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote

#47

Post by Gmo »

edko wrote: post #46

The rest of the EU countries should also hold a referendum about granting the UK these special conditions. It is very likely that, event after getting these privileges, they will act as if they were making us a favor to stay. Just leave. Maybe a free Scotland joins back in a few years.

Agreed. I would love to be consulted on this deal. Because I don't think the UK should get (any more) special rights. Stay as it is or leave, but why the special treatment ?

Re: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote

#48

Post by aembleton »

Silhouette wrote: post #43
aembleton wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Membership of the EU requires you to sign up to the ECHR, but countries outside of the EU are also members of the ECHR. We can continue to be part of the ECHR without being inside the EU. By leaving the EU, all our existing legislation that has been enacted will stay. It just means that our elected government will have the power to remove legislation without getting permission from unelected commissioners. Under the…

I expect if we vote to leave, there will be another referendum in 2017 after the EU has had some serious introspection about the democratic deficit. I would expect them to try to keep the UK as a member. In the news yesterday, before the deal was announced, there was talk of incorporating a specific guarantee that any decision this time would be final, and the EU would not then come back to the UK offering an improve…

If the EU make significant changes in the next year, I think another referendum would be a healthy thing. Especially if this one is close. This is a very significant decision and whilst I'm for leaving; I'd rather be a member of a pared down EU that concentrated on free trade and less on bureaucracy and the creation of legislation.

Re: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote

#49

Post by dogma1138 »

aembleton wrote: post #30
dogma1138 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK most likely will still remain within the EEA even if they'll leave the EU, as resident holders within Iceland, Norway and Switzerland can move around and work within any country within the EEA/EU even without being EU members. Not to mention that even a vote to exit will take years and there will be provisions to maintain current status it's highly unlikely that the UK will kick out millions of residents not t…

Agreed. I think you should be able to live and work in another EU country for a maximum of five years. After which time you should apply for citizenship. That way, member states can control migration levels and in exchange, those who have moved and settled in another country get full citizenship status including the right to fully partake in the voting process.

Well this is some what how the process currently works after 5 years in the UK EU nationals can apply for permanent residency and after 7 years they can apply for citizenship IIRC.

The problem with term limiting is that you almost ensuring that people will not make long term plans which leads to drain of capital. This is also why for example the current Tier 2 Inter-company Transfer UK visa's are moronic, they force very high minimum pay (50K GBP or more per year) but limit the term to upto 5 years without any option to extend that duration or even switch to another UK visa (with the exception of marriage/partnership).

The idea behind the term limit was to make the local workforce especially in IT more competitive the result was that companies still bring allot of employees from outside of the EU paying them very high salaries, have those employees gain experience and then after 5 years take all their knowledge and capital out of the UK because they can't settle.

The immigration policy in the UK is one of the least efficient and most self defeating immigration policies I've ever seen, it's pretty much structured to shoot it self in the foot every time with idiotic regulations that do no effect those who actually cause the highest financial drain but disenfranchise those who could actually benefit the country.

The EU immigration policy could be more adapted slightly to be better, the general immigration policy in the UK really needs a rework, move to a point based human capital value approach as it's currently one of the few countries that actually would kick out some one who spent 5 years studying in the UK getting a master degree then offered employment with a salary of over 100K$ because they are not from the EU and do not want to provide hospice and nurse the elderly.

Re: EU referendum: Cameron sets June date for UK vote

#50

Post by antillean »

aembleton wrote: post #42
antillean wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, what? Hasn't the ROI had a say up to now? What's about to change? Is the EC about to invade the ROI?

The EU requires protection of it's external border by member states. The ROI would be required to protect it's border with the UK. If it failed to do so, the EU could withhold funding from it, in effect fining them.

Ah

How does that work with Norway and Switzerland? Or is that different because they're members of the Schengen?

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