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Founder of Liberty Reserve Pleads Guilty to Laundering More Than $250M

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Re: Founder of Liberty Reserve Pleads Guilty to Laundering More Than $250M

#41

Post by bitwize »

MCRed wrote: post #35
gnaritas wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No they don't; but they should.

This is the distinction between a crime and something that is illegal. On HN people rarely make the distinction because they think something being illegal makes it a crime. Illegal means it violates a law. A crime is something that actually harms someone. Gay marriage may have been illegal, but it was never a crime, for example. Alas, these days the USA is a very authoritarian culture and the idea that there might be…

No. "Crime" is a legal concept. A crime at law is something for which the state is authorized to punish you. If you do something the law says is punishable by the state, irrespective of if you harmed anyone, you have committed a crime. If you plot to rob a bank, even if you do not go through with it and no one is harmed by your deeds, you can be convicted of conspiracy and jailed.

Re: Founder of Liberty Reserve Pleads Guilty to Laundering More Than $250M

#42

Post by gruez »

donatj wrote: post #38
dragonwriter wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crimes require violation of criminal law, which may or may not involve a victim (the legally offended party in a crime isn't the victim, if any, but the State; that's a pretty central distinction between crimes and torts.)

Depends on your definition of crime. From a legal sense, you are correct but from a moral human sense, the original poster is correct. A crime that hurts no one is not a crime.

>but from a moral human sense, the original poster is correct. A crime that hurts no one is not a crime.

according to whom?

Re: Founder of Liberty Reserve Pleads Guilty to Laundering More Than $250M

#43

Post by hartpuff »

patio11 wrote: post #39

Liberty Reserve's main line of business was operating a shared ledger trusted by multiple companies which would exchange cash for ledger entries and ledger entries for cash, earning a fee each time. Think like Western Union except minus all the pesky regulated bits. LR was a direct reaction to what had befallen e-gold, which was in fundamentally the same business except it did all of the cashing first-party (early in…

One of the biggest Forex platforms is a Government-regulated FTSE 250 PLC with a known founder, Chairman, CEO and board of directors.

One of the biggest Bitcoin exchanges is run by "Big Vern".

Bitcoin in a nutshell.

Re: Founder of Liberty Reserve Pleads Guilty to Laundering More Than $250M

#44

Post by tacon »

MCRed wrote: post #34
bdcravens wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Need to be licensed as an MSB is based on where your customers are located, not your business.

US Law does not apply to Costa Rica-- it's outside their jurisdiction. That's one of the fundamental problems here. The US could pass a law that Sainsburies (a UK grocery store, with no US locations) has to employ a jazz band at every one of their stores for 3 hours every friday afternoon... but it doesn't matter, because the US does not have jurisdiction over the UK. Even if a US citizen goes and visits and stops by…

Manuel Noriega wholeheartedly agrees with your interpretation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Noriega

Re: Founder of Liberty Reserve Pleads Guilty to Laundering More Than $250M

#45

Post by donatj »

gruez wrote: post #42
donatj wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on your definition of crime. From a legal sense, you are correct but from a moral human sense, the original poster is correct. A crime that hurts no one is not a crime.

>but from a moral human sense, the original poster is correct. A crime that hurts no one is not a crime. according to whom?

Would you, as a human, say people who have hurt no one should be punished?

Re: Founder of Liberty Reserve Pleads Guilty to Laundering More Than $250M

#46

Post by teraflop »

donatj wrote: post #40
chipperyman573 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) No[0] 2) Usually money laundering means the money was obtained illegitimately. That money had to come from SOMEWHERE, and someone was probably harmed in the taking of it. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victimless_crime

More often than not the only victims are victims because of the government actions. Violence triggered purely by its prohibitions or previous actions.

You saw the part in the original link about how Liberty Reserve laundered the proceeds of credit card fraud and identity theft, right? How is that the government's fault?

Re: Founder of Liberty Reserve Pleads Guilty to Laundering More Than $250M

#47

Post by driverdan »

patio11 wrote: post #39

Liberty Reserve's main line of business was operating a shared ledger trusted by multiple companies which would exchange cash for ledger entries and ledger entries for cash, earning a fee each time. Think like Western Union except minus all the pesky regulated bits. LR was a direct reaction to what had befallen e-gold, which was in fundamentally the same business except it did all of the cashing first-party (early in…

Bitcoin and other online exchange / transaction systems (e-gold, LR, etc) represent a small fraction of global money laundering, a small enough fraction to be laughable and irrelevant.

Re: Founder of Liberty Reserve Pleads Guilty to Laundering More Than $250M

#48

Post by donatj »

teraflop wrote: post #46
donatj wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More often than not the only victims are victims because of the government actions. Violence triggered purely by its prohibitions or previous actions.

You saw the part in the original link about how Liberty Reserve laundered the proceeds of credit card fraud and identity theft, right? How is that the government's fault?

That is not victimless and off topic from this sub-argument.

Re: Founder of Liberty Reserve Pleads Guilty to Laundering More Than $250M

#49

Post by ahmeni »

donatj wrote: post #45
gruez wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but from a moral human sense, the original poster is correct. A crime that hurts no one is not a crime. according to whom?

Would you, as a human, say people who have hurt no one should be punished?

Would you, as a human, say the legal system is some sort of Djinn that a certain combination of words will suddenly defeat?

My goodness, that flag does look a bit gold fringed.

Re: Founder of Liberty Reserve Pleads Guilty to Laundering More Than $250M

#50

Post by kjs3 »

driverdan wrote: post #47
patio11 wrote: post #39

Liberty Reserve's main line of business was operating a shared ledger trusted by multiple companies which would exchange cash for ledger entries and ledger entries for cash, earning a fee each time. Think like Western Union except minus all the pesky regulated bits. LR was a direct reaction to what had befallen e-gold, which was in fundamentally the same business except it did all of the cashing first-party (early in…

Bitcoin and other online exchange / transaction systems (e-gold, LR, etc) represent a small fraction of global money laundering, a small enough fraction to be laughable and irrelevant.

My illegal activity is smaller than that illegal activity going on over there so everyone should just ignore my illegal activity and let me continue my illegal activity.

FTFY

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