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Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

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Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#41

Post by kunai »

throwaway420 wrote: post #6

People are intelligent in many different ways and I don't believe that most people have the abstract thinking skills necessary to really thrive in computer science. Forcing everybody to take part in computer science education is probably going to frustrate the hell out of most people (make them feel stupid and annoyed at having to do this stuff) and dumb down the curriculum for the small percentage of kids who would…

When we're talking about computer science, we're not talking about learning algorithm complexity theory or binary search trees or discrete math or anything like that — those ideas will always be there for students who want to find them. A basic level of CS involves knowing how algorithms work, and knowing how computers and code function at a fundamental level.

It's quickly becoming more and more important to be familiar with these concepts, because electronics are getting more and more complex and their use cases are becoming more and more universal by the day.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#42

Post by alpsgolden »

subpixel wrote: post #18

I currently teach basic CS in an inner-city school, on a volunteer basis. Unfortunately, the problem isn't "US public schools lack {{important thing}}". The problem is that US public education is deeply broken. It's interesting to see the momentum living wage/minimum income campaigns are getting. But education equality, for which there must be a better term, isn't often brought up. At the school I'm in, when a kid wi…

At the school I'm in, when a kid with any potential comes in, the only course of action is to to help her transfer out to a school where she will actually learn something. Sadly, this is not the exception - there are literally millions of kids around the country in similar schools.

Why aren't they learning anything in your school? What should the school be doing that they are not doing now?

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#43

Post by eli_gottlieb »

aianus wrote: post #33
jcizzle wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true of all subjects, though. The purpose isn't to train world class engineers out of high school, it is to expose more people to the subject and the thought processes that go into it.

> This is true of all subjects, though. No, it's not. You're not going to do better with your English degree than English teacher so there's no disincentive to becoming one. Hence, students get reasonably competent English teachers. High School CS teachers, on the other hand, have to be completely incompetent or insane to choose to teach for $40k when they could be writing CRUD apps for $100k.

I write firmware for $90k and I'm insane enough to have always wanted to be a teacher.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#44

Post by RhysU »

aianus wrote: post #33
jcizzle wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true of all subjects, though. The purpose isn't to train world class engineers out of high school, it is to expose more people to the subject and the thought processes that go into it.

> This is true of all subjects, though. No, it's not. You're not going to do better with your English degree than English teacher so there's no disincentive to becoming one. Hence, students get reasonably competent English teachers. High School CS teachers, on the other hand, have to be completely incompetent or insane to choose to teach for $40k when they could be writing CRUD apps for $100k.

Ah, but that $100K will last for but one generation as the market is flooded with students that can write CRUD applications.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#45

Post by dreamdu5t »

nacs wrote: post #26
grandDesigns wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now, every single high school has (or, should have) teachers that can teach Biology, Chemistry, Physics, and Calculus. Basic Java Programming is waaaaay easier to learn to any one of those.

Learning a programming language is also about as difficult (and probably easier for some) than learning a foreign language (Spanish, French, etc) for 1-2 years which most states require.

I would just like to point out that students in the US do not actually learn languages in school. The "1-2 years" is hardly sufficient and US students do not graduate with the ability to read/write/speak another language besides English, as kids in countries like Taiwan, Netherlands, etc. do

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#46

Post by bane »

throwaway420 wrote: post #6

People are intelligent in many different ways and I don't believe that most people have the abstract thinking skills necessary to really thrive in computer science. Forcing everybody to take part in computer science education is probably going to frustrate the hell out of most people (make them feel stupid and annoyed at having to do this stuff) and dumb down the curriculum for the small percentage of kids who would…

So long as this doesn't translate into a grant that confuses CS with Programming I'm all for it. Students already have to learn mathematics. Learning about computation is just as important these days.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#47

Post by dragonwriter »

wrong_variable wrote: post #10

The real problem is not computer science. Everyone in the United States cannot be a programmer - its going to lead to the same problem we have with law, business, etc. Too many graduates leading to labour oversupply. Government will always be slower to respond then markets. So even though right now there is a shortage of programmers - it might not be the case once these student's graduate. So Govt is always one step…

Understanding computing and programming is useful in careers that aren't specifically centrally about programming, in much the same way that being able to write is useful in careers other than professional writing. But, sure, more people programming will mean more people who are can take jobs that are centrally programming jobs, which is a good thing for everyone except incumbent workers in the field who have more competition.

It also means people working in other fields who can more efficiently applying computing to their own domain, either directly or by being better able to identify opportunities and work with people who are primary programmers.to realislze them. That's also a general win.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#48

Post by rconti »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #39
brighteyes wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People are intelligent in many different ways and I don't believe that most people have the abstract thinking skills necessary to really thrive in computer science. Isn't the same true of math, which we already teach in schools extensively?

That's a very small, unambitious value of the word "extensively".

More than music, foreign languages, chemistry, physics....

"English" and "math" are the two things you'll be taking constantly in middle school and high school.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#49

Post by ams6110 »

alpsgolden wrote: post #42
subpixel wrote: post #18

I currently teach basic CS in an inner-city school, on a volunteer basis. Unfortunately, the problem isn't "US public schools lack {{important thing}}". The problem is that US public education is deeply broken. It's interesting to see the momentum living wage/minimum income campaigns are getting. But education equality, for which there must be a better term, isn't often brought up. At the school I'm in, when a kid wi…

At the school I'm in, when a kid with any potential comes in, the only course of action is to to help her transfer out to a school where she will actually learn something. Sadly, this is not the exception - there are literally millions of kids around the country in similar schools. Why aren't they learning anything in your school? What should the school be doing that they are not doing now?

Inner city school. First of all they often have basic infrastructure issues: leaky roofs, poorly- or non-working heat, rodent and insect infestations. OK those things are in theory correctable.

Secondly is the demographics. Inner city kids are often from low-income single-parent homes, living with foster parents or extended relatives, moving a couple of times a year, one or both parents may be incarcerated. Being around substance abusers is another big problem. Education is really low on the list of things they or their parents care about. And it's impossible to fix that at school.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#50

Post by brighteyes »

douche wrote: post #36
brighteyes wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People are intelligent in many different ways and I don't believe that most people have the abstract thinking skills necessary to really thrive in computer science. Isn't the same true of math, which we already teach in schools extensively?

The majority of people flail away and struggle to get through the three years of high-school level math they are typically required to take, which usually tops out at some kind of trig/pre-calculus level - which is just about what you'd need to know to be a carpenter who could figure angles and lengths without relying solely on rules-of-thumb. Maybe they take a softball stats class their senior year. Evidence would s…

Maybe they don't, in a way, but are you sure they still don't benefit from it, even if they find it hard and even if they only reach a pre-calculus level?
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