I think a lot of Europeans suffer over their keyboard layouts. I am Norwegian and a software developer. I hate Norwegian keyboard layout. It makes programming so much more awkward because the {}, [] and ; symbols used a lot in programming are not easily accessible. There is also a kind of tyranny in how computer companies deal with language. It is next to impossible to get an english layout Apple keyboard in Norway.…
Is France's AZERTY keyboard heading for the scrapheap?
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Re: Is France's AZERTY keyboard heading for the scrapheap?
#42I think a lot of Europeans suffer over their keyboard layouts. I am Norwegian and a software developer. I hate Norwegian keyboard layout. It makes programming so much more awkward because the {}, [] and ; symbols used a lot in programming are not easily accessible. There is also a kind of tyranny in how computer companies deal with language. It is next to impossible to get an english layout Apple keyboard in Norway.…
> It is next to impossible to get an english layout Apple keyboard in Norway.
I'm surprised. Each time I ordered a laptop on the Apple Store, there was the option to choose the keyboard layout.
> For the non english speakers among us, especially those from small countries like Norway we mix in a lot of english in our writing. But spell checking software isn't really designed to handle that.
(Sorry to contradict you :)) But again, I found Mac OS to be very good at guessing the language I'm using in a text input field. I could type French now and it would be able to correct it! maybe it's not as polished for Norvergian.
The only think I miss is the ability to lookup the definition of a French or Spanish word. By default, it only looks up english definitions when you click on words (if somebody knows how to achieve this, i'm interested!).
> I think a lot of Europeans suffer over their keyboard layouts.
Actually, I'm pretty fine with the AZERTY keyboard, even for programming. What I dislike is that I have to use both. My computer have qwerty keyboards, but sometimes I have to use French keyboard on other people's computers...
Re: Is France's AZERTY keyboard heading for the scrapheap?
#43To those that understand it to mean that AZERTY is dying, it is not. In fact, it is very hard to buy a non-AZERTY laptop in France. It is unlikely to ever go away. I personally would prefer (and do use) a QWERTY with compose key shortcuts. It is obviously easier to write code, but I find writing French also easier that way. Not only do we get the obvious (compose + ' = é, compose + ^ = ê, compose + ` = è), but we als…
On Windows, try "Pseudo VT320" from http://keyboards.jargon-file.org/ , it has most of these with AltGr as a compose-like key.
Re: Is France's AZERTY keyboard heading for the scrapheap?
#44Not french, but german. I just recently switched to the neo2 keyboard layout. The hardest thing is unlearning quertz (almost like querty) http://www.neo-layout.org/ It is highly optimized for the home row on the german vocabulary. Support for Programming is also very good. It has 6 different layers • Lowercase • Uppercase • Special Characters (Braces etc.) • Navigation and Numbers • Greek Alphabet (same layout as nor…
I live in Zurich and have been thinking of switching.. If you don't mind, I have a couple questions: How did you handle learning it given so many layers? Stickers seem like trouble.. Do you find it better or worse for dealing with use of occasional accents/etc from a 3rd latin language, (i.e. French) than a more traditional compose key route? Thanks!
Hi, I've been using Neo2 for a couple of years now, so maybe I can help you with these.
Don't use stickers! You should touch-type neo from the beginning, so avoid looking at the keyboard. I had a print-out next to me for the first couple of weeks.
You also don't need to memorize all the layers from the start. I use layers 5 and 6 very very rarely, and for the Greek letters you can mostly guess (α is on a, β on b, ε on e, σ on s, etc). I still don't know everything on layers 5 and 6 (where's the ℵ again?...). Start with the letters and punctuation (layers 1&2 plus bits of 3) and just type a lot of text for a week, maybe picking up things on layer 3 as you go. It'll be painfully slow at first and your fingers might feel strangely exhausted (I never learned touch typing with QWERTZ) but you'll get faster soon :)
It took me two to three weeks to get to a level where typing wasn't a total point and another couple of weeks to exceed my old typing speed. The most helpful thing was to jump right in and never switch back to QWERTZ -- total immersion. I was a student at the time so I could take that luxury, but if you have a job you might not have that luxury. I have no idea how to best go about learning Neo if you still need to be able to type quickly while learning.
I rarely use Layer 4, I should probably learn that, but with a TrackPoint navigation is very easy without leaving the home row.
Occasional accents are no problem at all, Neo has combining diacritics (dead keys) so it's similar to a compose approach (i.e. you press ` then e to get è, or ° a to get å). Very easy. They're all on the key left of backspace, the one below it, and the one left of 1.
Re: Is France's AZERTY keyboard heading for the scrapheap?
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
This causes excruciating pain when coding, as you can't type a single ', ", or ~ without an obligatory space after it. Instead, I usually install the "Pseudo VT320" keyboard layout from here: http://keyboards.jargon-file.org/ , which makes the AltGr key act like the Compose key on a Unix keyboard. The Mac keyboard is also bearable.
"excruciating pain" is a bit of hyperbole, don't you think? Quote keys are still in the home row, it is just a matter of muscle memory to get used to "right pinky at home row, thumb at space bar" to get quotes going. But I am an emacs user, so maybe I just got used to the composability.
> hyperbole
Yeah, and also I guess I shouldn't joke with that. Sorry.
Re: Is France's AZERTY keyboard heading for the scrapheap?
#46I think a lot of Europeans suffer over their keyboard layouts. I am Norwegian and a software developer. I hate Norwegian keyboard layout. It makes programming so much more awkward because the {}, [] and ; symbols used a lot in programming are not easily accessible. There is also a kind of tyranny in how computer companies deal with language. It is next to impossible to get an english layout Apple keyboard in Norway.…
> It is next to impossible to get an english layout Apple keyboard in Norway. I'm surprised. Each time I ordered a laptop on the Apple Store, there was the option to choose the keyboard layout. > For the non english speakers among us, especially those from small countries like Norway we mix in a lot of english in our writing. But spell checking software isn't really designed to handle that. (Sorry to contradict you :…
Maybe they meant in store? A friend of mine was studying in Denmark and his Macbook broke. He mentioned how hard it was to get a replacement with an American keyboard, so it seems to be a common problem.
Re: Is France's AZERTY keyboard heading for the scrapheap?
#47In Belgium, even in the Dutch speaking part of the country AZERTY is used. It's not that common to find QWERTY keyboards in stores.
Since I'm a software developer I've switched to US layout some years ago and never looked back.
Re: Is France's AZERTY keyboard heading for the scrapheap?
#48Not french, but german. I just recently switched to the neo2 keyboard layout. The hardest thing is unlearning quertz (almost like querty) http://www.neo-layout.org/ It is highly optimized for the home row on the german vocabulary. Support for Programming is also very good. It has 6 different layers • Lowercase • Uppercase • Special Characters (Braces etc.) • Navigation and Numbers • Greek Alphabet (same layout as nor…
This is a DVORAK-like layout. We have the same for French-speaking countries, namely the BÉPO. I tried switching to it, but I couldn't after a few weeks for three reasons: - I type slower on other's people keyboards when I have to change frequently of layout (I use a Spanish QWERTY layout so it isn't as different); - My phone doesn't have the layout, so more switching; - The shortcuts aren't as convenient (Ctrl+c/v/t…
I use neo and find QWERTZ annoying to type on other people's computers. I still use it on my phone though, that's a completely different kind of typing and feels completely separate. Ergonomic layouts also likely wouldn't work well with swipe typing, half the words would be dashing left and right on the home row ;)
Other people's computers are easy if they run Linux (setxkbmap de neo) and okay if they run Windows (there's a no-install no-admin tool to remap), but you can't switch a Mac temporarily without installing the keyboard layout and even then getting the layers to work is awful. So I'd say you're half-right about that.
I have no issue with the shortcuts, it takes a while to learn them anew but they're no less convenient because of it. I started using Emacs years after Neo and I have no complaints about the keymappings, so it really can't be that bad ;)
Re: Is France's AZERTY keyboard heading for the scrapheap?
#49Not french, but german. I just recently switched to the neo2 keyboard layout. The hardest thing is unlearning quertz (almost like querty) http://www.neo-layout.org/ It is highly optimized for the home row on the german vocabulary. Support for Programming is also very good. It has 6 different layers • Lowercase • Uppercase • Special Characters (Braces etc.) • Navigation and Numbers • Greek Alphabet (same layout as nor…
Just to add, while Neo is optimized for German text it also works very well with English (better than QWERTY/QWERTZ at any rate). These days I type more English text than German and it's no problem at all. Though it probably wouldn't be a native English speaker's first choice.
Re: Is France's AZERTY keyboard heading for the scrapheap?
#50Not french, but german. I just recently switched to the neo2 keyboard layout. The hardest thing is unlearning quertz (almost like querty) http://www.neo-layout.org/ It is highly optimized for the home row on the german vocabulary. Support for Programming is also very good. It has 6 different layers • Lowercase • Uppercase • Special Characters (Braces etc.) • Navigation and Numbers • Greek Alphabet (same layout as nor…
This is a DVORAK-like layout. We have the same for French-speaking countries, namely the BÉPO. I tried switching to it, but I couldn't after a few weeks for three reasons: - I type slower on other's people keyboards when I have to change frequently of layout (I use a Spanish QWERTY layout so it isn't as different); - My phone doesn't have the layout, so more switching; - The shortcuts aren't as convenient (Ctrl+c/v/t…
In my experience, still having azerty on the phone is not too inconvenient: while I type blind on the Bépo, I stay visual with Azerty. This is enough of a difference that I don't confuse the two.