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All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

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Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#41

Post by Moshe_Silnorin »

greggman wrote: post #22
Moshe_Silnorin wrote: post #7

I think it's worth pointing out that education is a filtering mechanism, if a terribly inefficient one. After basic maths and literacy are learned, it imparts little on the average student. A collage degree is a proxy for a reasonable IQ and moderately high conscientiousness. Thinking of education as an inefficient filtering mechanism helps illustrate why our frenzy for more education is misguided. Certainly more eff…

But more panning in more places finds more gold does it not? Maybe I misunderstood your point. Stories like that of Jaime Escalante suggest that there's a huge number of undiscovered talent and/or that better teaching makes more talent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaime_Escalante

That's impressive, but seems more like filtering. Taking the top 15 students in a high school and teaching them calculus doesn't prove that one can make people more intelligent through education, as 15 out of thousands is a huge filter - though still helping those kids was very nobel. As for the higher numbers later in his career, you have to imagine that with his fame intelligent students from other districts were likely filtered to his school. I also don't see a pass rate for the later years.

I've investigated many of the claims that one can teach intelligence. From Dual-N-Back to Head Start, they have all proven to have negligible effects on future outcomes and no effect on measured G. I think there are also pretty solid theoretical reasons to think that "learning how to learn" is not possible, as intelligence is that capacity that enables you to learn, you are strictly limited by your intelligence even when learning how to learn.

There is also increasing evidence in the literature that the theorized transfer effect (that learning one skill increases your capacity to learn other unrelated skills) does not exist.

These are not conclusions that I relish; I advocate them because I think they're true. Better a bitter truth than a sweet fiction.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#42

Post by pnathan »

FussyZeus wrote: post #3

It's been obvious for a decade that the "go to the factory every week for 40 years and retire" job sector is on the decline, a decline which has accelerated rapidly more recently. There is no place in our economy for a bolt turner to earn $25 an hour, end of discussion. This is why I like the idea of at least reducing the cost of a college education, or preferably eliminating it. A regular high school degree is quick…

There's a big gap between high school and a full bachelor's degree. AA degrees, trade schools, etc. Agreed that mindless automated jobs are a dead end.

I'd like to see a 2 or 3 year trade school for programming and other useful trades - with low costs. Something suitable for people who aren't interested in higher ed, but do want a decent trade in life.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#43

Post by meric »

rdlecler1 wrote: post #36

The problem is, is that 'good jobs' are hard to find even if you have a good education. If you do, you can look forward to 60-80 work weeks, expensive housing and child care, and of course massive student loan debt. Very few of the things that were available to the middle class 25 years ago are available to the best and brightest today. The question is, is there anything that can be done about it, it was the period b…

With some frugality, I think it's physically and economically possible. Imagine an America where grandparents (and great-grandparents if any) live with one of their children's family. Assuming an average of two children per grandparent, it will be half of the households will have 2 children, 2 parents, and 2 grandparents, and the other half the traditional nuclear family. The nursing home infrastructure will be much reduced because only the childless will live in them. It can reduce the liability on social security. This can be countered with tax cuts to children who are working to support their parents. Implement a law where elderly parents can sue their children for parental support, to cover cases where children do not care about their parents. A society that cherishes the dignity of dying at home surrounded by friends and family as opposed to enduring 3 months of humiliating treatment before dying violent death surrounded by nurses, will reduce healthcare costs. Grandparents will also reduce the labor requirement for childcare, and also provide guidance and teaching during times when parents are too busy working from day to night. In the case of widows and widowers, and single parents, grandparents can increase the chance a child grow up with a role model of their own gender. Being supported by adult children means even in the case when a 50 year old parent loses their job due to ageism, they will not be forced to live on their streets; With some frugality it should be possible for a pair of children to support their parents and grandparents living in the same home. These dynamics will reduce the pressure on the government budget, increase social capital, increase the sense of belonging, reduce the dependency for "a job" even when you're 50+, reduce the cost of housing by reducing demand, and by sharing furniture and other goods, reduce household expenditure. A 50 year old unemployed couple will be able to converse and socialise with their retired 75 year old parent(s) as a day-to-day activity.

And when you're spending time with people, in a house with a family, with clean water, sufficient food, electricity and internet access, with regular social gatherings, can you really be said to be in "lonely poverty"?

That said, all this is physically, economically possible today, but it is probably not politically or socially possible. It will take further decline before people finally realise it is what they've wanted all along.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#44

Post by CPLX »

meric wrote: post #10

What is society's ideal for the average white working class? What is "success"? Is it better looking houses? More expensive cars? Fresher food? Is it getting to live in a very expensive nursing home when they retire? Is it equality where both husband and wife are responsible exactly 50% in finances, chores and taking care of the kids? Or have the time & money to spend a lot more time with the kids; Will welfare help…

That was a whole lot fluffy vagueness. What they want are stable jobs that don't require higher education. Quite a bit follows from that.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#45

Post by orangecat »

watmough wrote: post #16

There is simply not enough 'work' any more. Here's a thought. Why can't we as a society ensure that everyone is paid a living wage according to their need. It may take a while, but I believe this will be the only way that we can hold this society* together. * Deep irony here, speaking as one of 'Thatcher's children'.

Deep irony here, speaking as one of 'Thatcher's children'.

Not really; there's a fair amount of support for a basic income from conservatives and libertarians, for good reason. We've decided that we aren't going to let people starve in the streets if they can't find a job. Given that, it makes much more sense to just give people money than to have a huge bureaucracy with dozens of programs trying to alleviate individual aspects of the problem of not having money.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#46

Post by thrownaway2424 »

Moshe_Silnorin wrote: post #34
danieltillett wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Education alone does tend to make people better neighbours. There is true value in education, but unfortunately the only market demand is for people who are intelligent, conscientious and educated in certain fields. Hit all three and you are in demand otherwise a life of dead end jobs awaits you.

Education is a proxy for IQ and conscientiousness. People with these characteristics (and importantly the wealth this provides) tend to make better neighbours. Zuck dropped out of college, yet I very much doubt he'd be a terrible neighbour, nor would a neighbourhood full of Harvard dropouts be bad.

The scuttlebutt around the neighborhood is actually that Zuck is a bit of a jackass, neighbor-wise.

http://sfist.com/2016/01/13/zuckerberg_neighbor_wages_campai...

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#47

Post by tosseraccount »

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #37
Moshe_Silnorin wrote: post #7

I think it's worth pointing out that education is a filtering mechanism, if a terribly inefficient one. After basic maths and literacy are learned, it imparts little on the average student. A collage degree is a proxy for a reasonable IQ and moderately high conscientiousness. Thinking of education as an inefficient filtering mechanism helps illustrate why our frenzy for more education is misguided. Certainly more eff…

Note that employers aren't allowed to measure and discriminate on IQ, but they are allowed to look at which college a candidate went to. Colleges, on the other hand, are allowed to measure and discriminate based on SAT score, which is highly correlated with IQ. And since college education is mostly a positional good (it helps you compete against people with worse education for limited jobs), there's a pretty fantasti…

What? Employers can't test for intelligence?

Do you have a link that backs up your assertion that "employers aren't allowed to measure and discriminate on IQ".

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#48

Post by Moshe_Silnorin »

thrownaway2424 wrote: post #46
Moshe_Silnorin wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Education is a proxy for IQ and conscientiousness. People with these characteristics (and importantly the wealth this provides) tend to make better neighbours. Zuck dropped out of college, yet I very much doubt he'd be a terrible neighbour, nor would a neighbourhood full of Harvard dropouts be bad.

The scuttlebutt around the neighborhood is actually that Zuck is a bit of a jackass, neighbor-wise. http://sfist.com/2016/01/13/zuckerberg_neighbor_wages_campai...

Most of the problems seem to be externalities of his fame and wealth. Say Facebook didn't work out and he got a job at Google, I doubt he would be considered a bad neighbour.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#49

Post by ap22213 »

Moshe_Silnorin wrote: post #7

I think it's worth pointing out that education is a filtering mechanism, if a terribly inefficient one. After basic maths and literacy are learned, it imparts little on the average student. A collage degree is a proxy for a reasonable IQ and moderately high conscientiousness. Thinking of education as an inefficient filtering mechanism helps illustrate why our frenzy for more education is misguided. Certainly more eff…

"Education is a proxy for IQ and conscientiousness."

Tell that to over 30% of my gifted class who weren't able to attend college (at least not until much later in life).

Education is generally a proxy for wealth, a certain type of culture, and supportive parents, in my experience.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#50

Post by Moshe_Silnorin »

tosseraccount wrote: post #47
ThrustVectoring wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that employers aren't allowed to measure and discriminate on IQ, but they are allowed to look at which college a candidate went to. Colleges, on the other hand, are allowed to measure and discriminate based on SAT score, which is highly correlated with IQ. And since college education is mostly a positional good (it helps you compete against people with worse education for limited jobs), there's a pretty fantasti…

What? Employers can't test for intelligence? Do you have a link that backs up your assertion that "employers aren't allowed to measure and discriminate on IQ".

Griggs v. Duke Power Co: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co.

You could argue this is the principal cause of our horrifically wasteful college boom.

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