Why Kubernetes isn't using Docker's libnetwork • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Kubernetes isn't using Docker's libnetwork

#41

Post by brazzledazzle » Fri, Jan 15, 2016, 3:15 PM UTC

jkyle wrote: post #15

jjn2009 wrote: post #12

Although this is reasonable its upsetting, I hope in time lxc software get less fragmented.. Docker really should have just gone with CNI.

LXC is deprecated from RHEL 7.x onward.[1] Doesn't that relegate it to "an Ubuntu thing" status? 1. https://access.redhat.com/articles/1365153

It might because they want customers to use OpenShift (version 3 is all docker/kubernetes under the hood) instead of a custom built solution. Although I do wonder how things like this will impact the OpenShift project since Kubernetes is such a key component.

Re: Why Kubernetes isn't using Docker's libnetwork

#42

Post by rdtsc » Fri, Jan 15, 2016, 4:06 PM UTC

justincormack wrote: post #38

rdtsc wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just means Redhat went Docker crazy. At some point they were being made fun of for being slow, old fashioned, stuck in the early 2000s. They have to be obviously for stabiliy, but you know word spreads. So around RHEL 7 time they went all crazy trying to show the tech world they are still hip and cool, looked around, saw what the cool kids were talking about -- Docker. So they got themselves some Docker. So now it…

Maybe its what their customers were asking for. Its not like the two things are even targeted at the same use case. Libvirt LXC is designed to make containers appearvlike VMs and is pretty heavyweight to set up. I always preferred using raw kvm or LXC to wrapping it in libvirt which just gets in the way. Docker is largely for running single applications with lightweight easy to use setup so you can run it constantly.

> Libvirt LXC is designed to make containers appearvlike VMs and is pretty heavyweight to set up.

Isn't libvirt just a controlling wrapper? It is basically an abstraction over various VM-like technologies: KVM, Xen etc.

Re: Why Kubernetes isn't using Docker's libnetwork

#43

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jan 15, 2016, 6:08 PM UTC

strcat wrote: post #32

23david wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow didn't realize they'd deprecated lxc. Thx for pointing that out.. that seems to leave all the projects relying on libvirt for container support in an odd spot? I thought that Openstack for example used libvirt-lxc for their container (non-docker) support? "Future development on the Linux containers framework is now based on the docker command-line interface. libvirt-lxc tooling may be removed in a future release…

They have systemd-nspawn as a lightweight interface to the container features (namespaces, control groups).

[deleted]

Re: Why Kubernetes isn't using Docker's libnetwork

#44

Post by justincormack » Fri, Jan 15, 2016, 7:55 PM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #42

justincormack wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe its what their customers were asking for. Its not like the two things are even targeted at the same use case. Libvirt LXC is designed to make containers appearvlike VMs and is pretty heavyweight to set up. I always preferred using raw kvm or LXC to wrapping it in libvirt which just gets in the way. Docker is largely for running single applications with lightweight easy to use setup so you can run it constantly.

> Libvirt LXC is designed to make containers appearvlike VMs and is pretty heavyweight to set up. Isn't libvirt just a controlling wrapper? It is basically an abstraction over various VM-like technologies: KVM, Xen etc.

Yes, but it makes containers pretty heavyweight. XML config files and so on.

Re: Why Kubernetes isn't using Docker's libnetwork

#45

Post by throwaway8674 » Fri, Jan 15, 2016, 9:02 PM UTC

akanet wrote: post #37

BinaryIdiot wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That status is gone, whatever it was.

I made a few pointed comments about his tone, which may have led (I hope) to the retraction: https://twitter.com/fulligin/status/687865366744150016

The response to that, even, is pretty remarkable:

> I react badly to hypocrisy, a known weakness. You should be a maintainer for a week and decide for yourself :)

I'd say that's pattern matches as a humblebrag, except it's more of a... faux-humble pointed insult? "Apologizing" for tone and managing to call someone a hypocrite within so few words is... I struggle for words. Impressive? It leaves an impression.

Good for you for standing up.

Re: Why Kubernetes isn't using Docker's libnetwork

#46

Post by nwmcsween » Fri, Jan 15, 2016, 11:22 PM UTC

namsral wrote: post #8

fidget wrote: post #7

Nice to finally see it in writing: "Throughout this investigation Docker has made it clear that they’re not very open to ideas that deviate from their current course or that delegate control"

The team at CoreOS came to a similar conclusion: > Docker has demonstrated that it is on a path to include many facilities beyond basic container management, turning it into a complex platform. More than a year ago on their blog, https://coreos.com/blog/rocket/

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Re: Why Kubernetes isn't using Docker's libnetwork

#47

Post by SEJeff » Sat, Jan 16, 2016, 2:16 AM UTC

Stuff like this (from Docker Inc, not Kubernetes) is why I'm really glad that Kubernetes is doing this.

I'm a Mesos user and absolutely can't wait until the Unified Containerizer bits are finished. The plan is to be able to pull down a docker image and run it as though it was being ran via the docker daemon, but not using docker and instead using the mesos native namespacing and control group bits. I would have already been a Kubernetes user had it not have depended on docker so heavily.

In our mesos environment, the only part we have issues with on a regular basis is docker. First it was the userland proxy and the performance and latency issues it introduced. Then it was the unresolved bug of docker just simply hanging under any sort of load[1] with upstream not really caring at all. Then there are random and difficult to reproduce issues where containers with bridged networking simply stop passing traffic from external interfaces into the containers when nothing has changed etc. So we use docker containers for some things, but try to limit them due to docker simply not being amazing for running production services for some of our use cases.

[1] https://github.com/docker/docker/issues/13885

Re: Why Kubernetes isn't using Docker's libnetwork

#48

Post by crb » Sat, Jan 16, 2016, 6:29 PM UTC

SEJeff wrote: post #47

Stuff like this (from Docker Inc, not Kubernetes) is why I'm really glad that Kubernetes is doing this. I'm a Mesos user and absolutely can't wait until the Unified Containerizer bits are finished. The plan is to be able to pull down a docker image and run it as though it was being ran via the docker daemon, but not using docker and instead using the mesos native namespacing and control group bits. I would have alrea…

> I would have already been a Kubernetes user had it not have depended on docker so heavily.

You can use Kubernetes with rkt instead of Docker: https://github.com/kubernetes/kubernetes/tree/master/docs/ge...