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Unscrewed: A Story About OpenBSD

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Re: Unscrewed: A Story About OpenBSD

#41
post #34

A couple of elephants in the room: Why on earth were you running a hosting business with Cisco 2950s? Those are wiring closet desktop switches with tiny buffers. That alone probably caused a lot of pain. You didn't know about it, but they did. Second, the Juniper J4350 is a software router based on BSD. There's no special hardware in there like ASICs. It's just a PC. JunOS (historically) is based on BSD. They're movi…

I've heard nothing about JunOS moving to Linux. That would be a truly bizarre move on their part, both in terms of technical quality of Linux vs FreeBSD, and licensing headaches with the GPL.

Do you have a source?

Re: Unscrewed: A Story About OpenBSD

#42
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who want to have support by a large vendor. If your DIY-setup fails you can't blame a vendor. In theory using the same kind of appliance as everybody else means you can easily find an networking guy to work with it, people who are good at both traditional networking gear and BSD/Linux are harder to find. If a dedicated box fails you can just have someone with some experience plop a new one in, reapply the conf…

I've heard the "blame a vendor" argument again and again in my life, but I have yet to see this "blame" ever occur. Granted, I'm dealing with small and medium-sized companies, but I've never seen any kind of tangible financial outcome from "blaming" a vendor (other than that vendor not getting future sales).

"nobody gets fired for buying IBM"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt

Everyone who says anything like "blame the vendor", have just drank too much marketing cool-aid.

Re: Unscrewed: A Story About OpenBSD

#43

I'll never forget this time in college when I had set up an OpenBSD router in our apartment and came home one weekend to find that I was unable to log into it via SSH. Actually, it was timing out. So I hooked up a monitor and a keyboard to this old old P1/133 with 32MB of ram that had been taken out of a dumpster to be our router to see what was going on. A few months prior to this I had been playing around with rrd…

ah, nobody ever forgets their first lock file.

Re: Unscrewed: A Story About OpenBSD

#44
post #34

A couple of elephants in the room: Why on earth were you running a hosting business with Cisco 2950s? Those are wiring closet desktop switches with tiny buffers. That alone probably caused a lot of pain. You didn't know about it, but they did. Second, the Juniper J4350 is a software router based on BSD. There's no special hardware in there like ASICs. It's just a PC. JunOS (historically) is based on BSD. They're movi…

> JunOS (historically) is based on BSD. They're moving to Linux now. Do you have details on this? Given how active they are in the FreeBSD community, I would have thought to have heard about that already.

Depending on how you look at it some platforms are already running Linux.

QFX5100 runs a Linux KVM hypervisor with the traditional FreeBSD based Junos running as a guest. Same with the new x86 based SRX (SRX1500). There are more moving to this model.

The x86 based SRX is the most interesting with the forwarding daemons running on the hypervisor OS and the Junos based VM is just for management and protocols. It's not that hard to see that management and protocols can be easily ported.

There are more details that are locked behind an NDA.

Re: Unscrewed: A Story About OpenBSD

#46
I've always (or, for many years) wondered why this wasn't more common. Every network I've ever built has been routed by Linux or a BSD, though I've maintained a few with Cisco routers. Partly because it's what I know, and partly because there's never enough in the budget to to everything the client and I wanted to do with Cisco or even Juniper gear.

Now, admittedly, I've never worked on big networks. But, I know what I like, and I know working on a Cisco feels like 1996, and that working on a full-blown modern UNIX/Linux system feels like home. And, fast network gear is available for Linux and the BSDs. 10Gb interfaces that work with Linux/BSD are not difficult to find, and 1Gb interfaces (sometimes several of them) have been standard on every server and barebones rackmount on the market for a decade.

I understand there are special purpose boxes that do things no off-the-shelf commodity box can do (I don't know enough about high end networking to know where to draw that line), but I honestly doubt 95% of business networks need them. And, yet, a huge percentage of business networks that have real routers (rather than little wifi routers from LinkSys/NetGear or whatever) have a Cisco of some sort, even when they don't have anyone on staff who knows how to work the thing. I've walked into several businesses that had expertise in house for everything except their router, which is also weird...why pick a Cisco router for your little ~100-1000 node network, if you've got Linux or BSD guys hanging out in the server room every day? They'd call someone and sit around waiting when their network was acting up.

I learned how to use Cisco routers just so I'd be able to replace them easily (enough knowledge to read the routing tables, firewall rules, etc., but not enough to do much useful), when I found situations like that.

Re: Unscrewed: A Story About OpenBSD

#47
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's mostly about support and SLAs. Some people like to know that if something goes wrong there's a vendor they can shout at.

Sadly though, shouting at a vendor doesn't fix your issues within a couple of hours, and downtime can be a pain. Running Linux/*BSD/Whatever on off-the-shelf boxen which you can pickup everywhere (and have cheap spares) and fix yourself will let you get back online quickly.

> Sadly though, shouting at a vendor doesn't fix your issues within a couple of hours

It does if your support contract is expensive enough.

Re: Unscrewed: A Story About OpenBSD

#48
post #19
post #2

Commodity hardware and general-purpose systems win every time. Honestly I wonder, who the hell buys these overpriced networking appliances? Similarly with expensive proprietary databases, or ESB systems. Are they just leftovers of a different time (note article is from 2007)? Is it a case of management buying from the salesman who bought them a nice dinner? Some place where these things generate actual value that I'm…

Medium sized stable businesses. Small shops can't afford them. Large shops (Google, Facebook) hire people and use open source software.

Facebook builds their own networking hardware (which runs open source software):

https://code.facebook.com/posts/843620439027582/facebook-ope...

Re: Unscrewed: A Story About OpenBSD

#49
post #29
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medium sized stable businesses. Small shops can't afford them. Large shops (Google, Facebook) hire people and use open source software.

At the moment, network switching and routing with open source products + commodity servers can't scale like Cisco and Juniper...if you want to have a fairly standard network (OSPF, BGP, etc). Google, for example, is able to use commodity hardware because what they are routing works with a non-traditional setup...specifically a Clos network. That works for them only because their app is designed in a way that it can s…

The networking hardware that Facebook builds uses ASICs: https://code.facebook.com/posts/717010588413497/introducing-...
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