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Nanomsg: Stepping Down

garrett.damore.org

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Re: Nanomsg: Stepping Down

#41

Post by alextgordon »

nijiko wrote: post #39
mc808 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't exactly scientific, but just go over to YouTube and read the comments whenever a woman gives a technical talk. Now imagine a role reversal where, whenever a straight male gives a talk, you can count on it receiving numerous comments from gay men saying they love a guy with brains, or how badly they want to fuck the guy (or that he isn't attractive enough for that), or that he should go back to the garage a…

As much as it is fun to utilize arbitrary examples, a CoC wouldn't solve Youtube comment issues. See what I mean?

And furthermore, the comments can be turned off.

Re: Nanomsg: Stepping Down

#42

Post by moonchrome »

SwellJoe wrote: post #34
moonchrome wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>despite the evidence to the contrary in the form of such low historic participation by women and people of color in tech. Are asians suddenly white and only black people are people of color ? I see asians significantly represented in the tech community (especially India with English history and emigration to west). And they are at all levels of tech from CEO to us regular code monkeys.

Do you believe that because Asian folks have reasonable (maybe even over-) representation in tech, that tech is an inclusive environment for all people of color, as well as women? Edit: And, another thing!...I believe I've personally seen more anti-Asian racism in tech than most other kinds of racism (though the extreme level of sexism in tech far surpasses any racism I've seen). Fake Indian accents and jokes about E…

>Do you believe that because Asian folks have reasonable (maybe even over-) representation in tech, that tech is an inclusive environment for all people of color, as well as women?

IMO tech industry is the most meritocratic sector I've seen, even more the little I've seen from academia. Note - it's far from being some ideal meritocracy, there's plenty of PHB, politics and plain old corporate bullshit, but low barriers to entry, highly competitive environment, high impact work with low iteration time and the scaling model of software really helps steer incentives towards actually hiring the best person for the job.

I believe the reason these other groups are not represented in tech is mostly because of factors outside of tech industry (social) and tech industry shouldn't be reaching backwards to support underrepresented groups simply because they are underrepresented. If the society sees a problem with this imbalance then they are free to fix the issue at the source instead of trying to fix a thing that works relatively well.

Re: Nanomsg: Stepping Down

#43

Post by [deleted] »

nijiko wrote: post #40

I have attempted to ascertain the need of a CoC for this community by reading through the mailing list and issues... The more that I read through it, the less I see the need for one. It simply appears as a power play from this individual user, as such is identified by this lengthy blog post which signals some red flags. The previous owner says it all himself pretty clearly: > The current attempts to adopt CoC in vari…

[deleted]

Re: Nanomsg: Stepping Down

#44

Post by Torgo »

bobcostas55 wrote: post #29
rdtsc wrote: post #16

I don't understand. The people who are -1, what do they care if it is adopted? Is CoC that controversial? Are personal attacks, doxing, trolling and slurs part of their daily routine they will be seriously inconvenienced by inability to use them? --- * The use of sexualized language or imagery * Personal attacks * Trolling or insulting/derogatory comments * Public or private harassment * Publishing other's private in…

It's purely a signaling issue, the text of the CoC is completely irrelevant.

The explosive anger at the Linux Code of Conflict betrays that this fight has been less over needing clear rules as it is the need of some people to force their particular set of rules in as many places as possible.

Re: Nanomsg: Stepping Down

#45

Post by mc808 »

nijiko wrote: post #39
mc808 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't exactly scientific, but just go over to YouTube and read the comments whenever a woman gives a technical talk. Now imagine a role reversal where, whenever a straight male gives a talk, you can count on it receiving numerous comments from gay men saying they love a guy with brains, or how badly they want to fuck the guy (or that he isn't attractive enough for that), or that he should go back to the garage a…

As much as it is fun to utilize arbitrary examples, a CoC wouldn't solve Youtube comment issues. See what I mean?

I just pulled up a video that I remember having particularly bad comments, and the comments were gone. I guess that channel does have a code of conduct, even if it's not formalized. I don't know that publishing a CoC document "solves" anything, but at the very least it acknowledges that the sort of conduct I was illustrating does exist and should be discouraged.

Perhaps it's along the same lines as the "don't piss in my pool" sign. Some visitors may see it as a sign that you care about water quality and will feel safer jumping in. Others might wonder if it indicates that a lot of people do piss in your pool.

Re: Nanomsg: Stepping Down

#47

Post by [deleted] »

DannyBee wrote: post #36
SwellJoe wrote: post #4

I think the value of a CoC is merely to signal to people who have experienced abuse or disrespect in communities before (which would describe, I think, most women and people of color who have participated in technical communities for more than a short time) that the community is on their side when sexists or racists show up. That has some value. It doesn't really matter to the majority, and it doesn't actually alter…

"I think the value of a CoC is merely to signal to people who have experienced abuse or disrespect in communities before (which would describe, I think, most women and people of color who have participated in technical communities for more than a short time) that the community is on their side when sexists or racists show up. " If a COC becomes a baseline requirement for people to run projects and attract contributor…

[deleted]

Re: Nanomsg: Stepping Down

#48

Post by [deleted] »

mc808 wrote: post #33
WizzleKake wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

which would describe, I think, most women and people of color who have participated in technical communities for more than a short time This is an odd assumption to make.

This isn't exactly scientific, but just go over to YouTube and read the comments whenever a woman gives a technical talk. Now imagine a role reversal where, whenever a straight male gives a talk, you can count on it receiving numerous comments from gay men saying they love a guy with brains, or how badly they want to fuck the guy (or that he isn't attractive enough for that), or that he should go back to the garage a…

[deleted]

Re: Nanomsg: Stepping Down

#49

Post by TeMPOraL »

rdtsc wrote: post #32
bobcostas55 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's purely a signaling issue, the text of the CoC is completely irrelevant.

> It's purely a signaling issue, the text of the CoC is completely irrelevant. That's what I am thinking. Why not signal that "yeah these issues exist, we took 10 minutes to create some guide and put it on Github or some place". I understand if it wasn't already done, and its usefulness has to be weighed against the time it takes to do it. But it was already done. Just approve it and move on. Why drive-by and throw -…

What do you mean by "-1"?

RE signaling issue - those people who are opposed to CoC are reacting because the CoC trend did not appeared from nowhere - it's the result of the SJW narrative that's been spreading around the Internet. So by accepting the CoC they feel they're legitimizing (what they perceive as) the culture of outrage and censorship that hides beneath the talk of preventing abuse.

Re: Nanomsg: Stepping Down

#50

Post by nijiko »

mc808 wrote: post #45
nijiko wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as it is fun to utilize arbitrary examples, a CoC wouldn't solve Youtube comment issues. See what I mean?

I just pulled up a video that I remember having particularly bad comments, and the comments were gone. I guess that channel does have a code of conduct, even if it's not formalized. I don't know that publishing a CoC document "solves" anything, but at the very least it acknowledges that the sort of conduct I was illustrating does exist and should be discouraged. Perhaps it's along the same lines as the "don't piss in…

Arbitrary notions of safety and conduct. People know how they should conduct themselves, and those who will do something wrong don't care.

Arbitrary notions of power. Does enacting this over the members of this community improve anything? No. There are no issues within it to begin with. Nobody is rampantly "pissing in the pool" on a daily basis, hell even monthly basis at that.

Arbitrary notions of acknowledgment. Do you read through every ToS you've agreed to? No.

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