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How bad are things?

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Re: How bad are things?

#41

Post by FussyZeus »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #5

I think this is a fundamental property of capitalism. People who are happy and taken care of don't need to spend money and are terrible for the economy. If you can create problems for someone, you can market solutions to them. Some of the best selling products in the world, like Coca-Cola, are themselves creating the the problem they purport to solve. For a century, companies have been pushing cultural changes that m…

I used to be a hardcore capitalist and would've launched into a rant at this kind of a post. I do disagree in a minor way though: I think Capitalism is fine and dandy, I think we've just gotten entirely too good at the emotional manipulative style of marketing products.

Awhile back I started reading a lot about what goes into the creation of a mainstream big brand product and it's fucking horrifying. Food for example should scare you to death, how thoroughly engineered it is to make you want to eat more of it and never feel full. I'm not even talking highly processed food, I'm talking ALL FUCKING FOOD does this. If it's ever been involved in a corporation at all, be it for packaging, growing, slaughtering, etc. I promise you it has been engineered to at least some degree, and probably to a large degree to be consumed as an addictive thing.

Then you go into just the regular advertising for electronics, cars, on and on and how they do just tons and tons of things in this little 30 second TV spot to make you want a thing. You can find BOOK length documents to read about how to engineer the perfect YouTube ad, we've already figured out how to entice people to things using a 10 second video that takes up 1/4 of the page.

I still believe capitalism is the best system, but we need to reign in our marketers across the board. Consumers need to be able to make rational decisions for Capitalism to truly work, and they can't do that when they're being barraged with manipulative messaging 14 hours a day.

Re: How bad are things?

#42

Post by dasyatidprime »

firebones wrote: post #18
onetwotree wrote: post #6

I'm an addict in long term recovery, and I hang out with lots of addicts trying to get or stay clean. Obviously this crowd has problems! But what's interesting is that as I've been making friends who aren't addicts, they have problems that are every bit as messed up as the recovery crowd. There are two main differences, though: "normal" people are much more committed to hiding their problems (I feel as though I only…

Answering your edit: don't people have to come to this conclusion on their own, rather than be "convinced"? Doesn't someone have to pass through some period of anhedonia, and the realization that "things" aren't going to make them happier, before they can start to see the structure that will help? If so, and if your desire is to help normal people, I guess your choices are to a) find a strategy that sells anhedonia a…

Which Robert Pirsig quotes did you mean again? That link seems to be for this article itself.

Re: How bad are things?

#43

Post by joesmo »

isolate wrote: post #36
joesmo wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you replied to the wrong comment.

No, but I probably misread yours if you didn't understand my question. I thought you said different kinds of suffering are incomparable, and so I asked about not being able to compare two specific kinds of suffering, murder and insults. (Or rather, acts that can induce suffering and the suffering that results.)

No, I said you can't compare people's suffering because you can't measure it, regardless of what's causing that suffering.

Re: How bad are things?

#44

Post by arjie »

onetwotree wrote: post #6

I'm an addict in long term recovery, and I hang out with lots of addicts trying to get or stay clean. Obviously this crowd has problems! But what's interesting is that as I've been making friends who aren't addicts, they have problems that are every bit as messed up as the recovery crowd. There are two main differences, though: "normal" people are much more committed to hiding their problems (I feel as though I only…

What are some examples of problems normal people have that are as bad as the ones addicts are having? I promise I am asking this question in good faith.

Re: How bad are things?

#45

Post by ohthehugemanate »

FussyZeus wrote: post #41
erikpukinskis wrote: post #5

I think this is a fundamental property of capitalism. People who are happy and taken care of don't need to spend money and are terrible for the economy. If you can create problems for someone, you can market solutions to them. Some of the best selling products in the world, like Coca-Cola, are themselves creating the the problem they purport to solve. For a century, companies have been pushing cultural changes that m…

I used to be a hardcore capitalist and would've launched into a rant at this kind of a post. I do disagree in a minor way though: I think Capitalism is fine and dandy, I think we've just gotten entirely too good at the emotional manipulative style of marketing products. Awhile back I started reading a lot about what goes into the creation of a mainstream big brand product and it's fucking horrifying. Food for example…

While I don't necessarily disagree I have to point out that TFA isn't talking about the malaise of wanting more to consume. It's talking about much larger issues: people who are schizophrenic, or victims if physical abuse, or rape.

I don't see any marketers out there enticing more people into the arms of schizophrenia, food stamps, or prison sentences.

Re: How bad are things?

#46

Post by nirmel »

firebones wrote: post #33
nirmel wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Appreciate your citing this fallacy. We certainly can complain about problems that exist, regardless of their severity, perhaps because they affect us or people we care about. But I think there is a real problem when worrying about one problem comes at the expense of caring about another more severe problem. Contrived thought experiment: You have the magical power of either curing your own toothache, or curing the wo…

I see where you're going, but "magical powers" take this so far into the realm of hypothetical that I don't think we can use it as a basis for argument. But let me allow it, and move it to the real of practicality. Based on the skills and resources I now have, the contribution I can now make with my skills and resources (the "magical powers" at my disposal) would only fractionally help cure AIDS. At best, I might be…

I think if you are able to generate a lot of capital you should focus on doing that, as Gates did, and then donate it all to where you believe it will do the most before or when you die. That's at least what I'm trying to do.

Re: How bad are things?

#47

Post by klipt »

D_Alex wrote: post #9

But... from the same site, we have an article entitled "HOLOCAUST GOOD FOR YOU, RESEARCH FINDS, BUT FREQUENT TAUNTING CAUSES CANCER IN RATS", which includes this quote, that attempts to explain why holocaust survivors have on average longer lives: "One possible explanation for these findings might be the “Posttraumatic Growth” phenomenon, according to which the traumatic, life-threatening experiences Holocaust surviv…

> holocaust survivors have on average longer lives

Sounds to me like they might have the causation reversed. Maybe only healthier/tougher than average people survived in the first place.

Re: How bad are things?

#48

Post by RobertoG »

karmacondon wrote: post #39
erikpukinskis wrote: post #5

I think this is a fundamental property of capitalism. People who are happy and taken care of don't need to spend money and are terrible for the economy. If you can create problems for someone, you can market solutions to them. Some of the best selling products in the world, like Coca-Cola, are themselves creating the the problem they purport to solve. For a century, companies have been pushing cultural changes that m…

It seems like you and many other people are of the world view that everyone would behave ideally if only corporate forces weren't influencing them. This may be true, there's no way to know for sure. It's also possible that most major corporations meet the demands of the market rather than create those demands. Art imitates life. The thing about brand advertising, like for Coca-Cola, is that its done mainly for commod…

I agree with you that to blame corporations about every bad thing is going too far.

But I also think that you go too far exculpating them.

To say "all of these things are democratic, they reflect the will of the people", is a very naive comment.

Tobacco is a good example of a need that was just created.

Or in the news not so long ago:

Coca-Cola 'spends millions on research to prove that fizzy drinks don't make you fat' ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandcon... )

We could find so many examples as you need.

Re: How bad are things?

#49

Post by mbrock »

nirmel wrote: post #19
lkrubner wrote: post #2

This is a great excerpt: -------------------------- This is part of why I get enraged whenever somebody on Tumblr says “People in Group X need to realize they have it really good”, or “You’re a Group X member, so stop pretending like you have real problems.” The town where I practice psychiatry is mostly white and mostly wealthy. That doesn’t save it. And whenever some online thinkpiece writer laughs about how good p…

I'm one of those people who say that almost all people in America have it really good, and everyone should stop complaining. I'm trying to understand why I'm wrong about the following: - Most people in America are struggling - Most people outside America are struggling much, much more, to a degree not fathomable by Americans. - Therefore, people in America should acknowledge they have it really good and stop complain…

You use the word "therefore" as if you had presented a syllogism, but for an actual solid argument you need to explain how the conclusion follows from the premises. Presumably you are making use of a principle that implies that the existence of people suffering more than you means that your suffering is lessened. That can be disputed, but you haven't even argued for it yet.

Re: How bad are things?

#50

Post by fsloth »

p4wnc6 wrote: post #20
onetwotree wrote: post #6

I'm an addict in long term recovery, and I hang out with lots of addicts trying to get or stay clean. Obviously this crowd has problems! But what's interesting is that as I've been making friends who aren't addicts, they have problems that are every bit as messed up as the recovery crowd. There are two main differences, though: "normal" people are much more committed to hiding their problems (I feel as though I only…

I don't mean any offense when I say this, but I kind of resent this type of perspective. I can't say for sure but I suspect if we knew each other, I would fall into the "non-addict friend with problems" type category. You do correctly point out that a lot of people worry whether they will be judged for revealing a problem. This has happened to me and my family quite severely. Long-term, deeply close friends have aban…

Your comment about money really alleviating some issues was exactly to the point. I recently lost both of my parents and my family has a few issues. I got a raise recently and my inheritance is worth few years wages. Money does not help with the pain of loss but these 'other issues' would be considerably more stressfull with less of it.
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