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Pricing Programmers

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Re: Pricing Programmers

#41
post #25

The labor market for programers in the tech industry has two features (anecdotally observed) that are interesting to me: 1. Labor does not receive (or insist on) percent-of-value or percent-of-transaction compensation. This is in contrast to some other professional disciplines (e.g., salespeople often get paid on a percentage or commission, bankers often take a % cut, pe / vc / hf has 2% and 20%, real estate is on a…

> Labor does not receive (or insist on) percent-of-value or percent-of-transaction compensation.

This is true of pretty much all engineering jobs, and more broadly, most non-sales jobs. Commission becomes feasible when you can directly attribute sales or billable hours to a specific person.

> Initial salaries are good, but there is wage stagnation.

This is true for all engineering jobs, and also most jobs in general. Banking and consulting are exceptions, and as others have pointed out, the attrition rate is quite high in these fields and that skews the numbers somewhat.

> In contrast, 5x or more is not unusual in other fields.

Care to name some, besides banking and consulting, and possibly corporate law? I'd suggest that in most fields, you don't make significantly more money until you're managing a significant percentage of people, or tasked with making decisions that set the direction the company.

Why should programmers be an exception?

Re: Pricing Programmers

#42
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> out-of-college salaries for programming are often better than virtually everything else (notably, banking and consulting); but after ten years, the opposite is relationship is reversed (considerably so) Don't forget that there is huge flight from banking and consulting, but much less so for programming. Of 10 people who start as bankers or consultants, 80% will likely leave the industry within 5 years, and 90% with…

That's an interesting comment. Do sources for those stats and numbers on how many people leave banking? What about programming? Just searching around doesn't show anything solid up.

In short, the "up or out" policy of banks and consultancies is notorious for having more "out" than "up": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Up_or_out

To put hard numbers on it, McKinsey is one of top management consulting firms. According to an employee, its average tenure among new consultants is 2.5 years. https://www.quora.com/Why-are-employees-loyal-to-McKinsey

That's consistent with the staffing ratios within the firm (Wikipedia suggests thare are ~400 directors compared to about 9000 total consultants). Those are the ones who stuck around for more than a decade.

Re: Pricing Programmers

#43
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> out-of-college salaries for programming are often better than virtually everything else (notably, banking and consulting); but after ten years, the opposite is relationship is reversed (considerably so) Don't forget that there is huge flight from banking and consulting, but much less so for programming. Of 10 people who start as bankers or consultants, 80% will likely leave the industry within 5 years, and 90% with…

That's an interesting comment. Do sources for those stats and numbers on how many people leave banking? What about programming? Just searching around doesn't show anything solid up.

Not OP but I read a statistic that only 1 in 5 analysts at I-banks are still in the industry after five years in the book 'Young Money'

Re: Pricing Programmers

#44
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At one point in history, knowing how to use a typewriter was itself a marketable skill, because few actually had access to one and knew how to use it. These days, most people in the developed world know how to type, but still only a small portion know how to write programs . Saying that this is worthless is silly at best; someone is willing to pay someone else to turn their ideas into code, so it must be worth someth…

It does not matter whether programming is marketable or not. What matter is that the results of programming, such as Google Search or Facebook, are highly marketable. Mistake number one: never sell yourself. Only sell the result of your efforts, and preferable not to middlemen, but directly to the real buyer. That is how you create hundreds of billions of dollars in value.

You're flooding this comment thread with these posts.

A single person didn't build any of these billion dollar companies you're referencing; at some point they had to hire more people, who in turn "sold themselves" by your confused logic, to build the company.

Most of these halo companies have non-programmers who were brought in to monetize and grow the value in them. Sheryl Sandberg isn't a programmer nor I think the rest of that board. Eric Schmidt was an electrical engineer.

Re: Pricing Programmers

#45
"In the best case the programmer and the company will both think they are getting a good deal."

IMO that is far from the best case. That allows "ignorance is bliss" and, at the other end of the malice spectrum, for one party to be taking advantage of the other.

I once sold a rare trading card for $50. I thought I was getting a good deal, the other person knew it was worth much more than that and thought they were getting a good deal. Was this situation optimal?

I once sold a laptop to a person over craigslist for a fair price. He thought he was getting a good deal as well. When I got home I discovered that model had just been obsoleted and so a brand new one was as cheap as the used one I'd just sold. Was this situation optimal?

Re: Pricing Programmers

#46
post #41
post #25

The labor market for programers in the tech industry has two features (anecdotally observed) that are interesting to me: 1. Labor does not receive (or insist on) percent-of-value or percent-of-transaction compensation. This is in contrast to some other professional disciplines (e.g., salespeople often get paid on a percentage or commission, bankers often take a % cut, pe / vc / hf has 2% and 20%, real estate is on a…

> Labor does not receive (or insist on) percent-of-value or percent-of-transaction compensation. This is true of pretty much all engineering jobs, and more broadly, most non-sales jobs. Commission becomes feasible when you can directly attribute sales or billable hours to a specific person. > Initial salaries are good, but there is wage stagnation. This is true for all engineering jobs, and also most jobs in general.…

> Care to name some, besides banking and consulting, and possibly corporate law? I'd suggest that in most fields, you don't make significantly more money until you're managing a significant percentage of people, or tasked with making decisions that set the direction the company.

This is fair / you're right: I was mainly thinking of banking, consulting, law, and buy-side finance. As you say, though, there are plenty of highly-trained professionals who don't experience a 5x earnings increase over 10 years; functional medical roles (e.g., anesthesiologists) come to mind.

Something I was wondering when I wrote the original question -- and I may be way off here -- is whether there are cultural or structural effects in tech-industry programming that cause wage stagnation. For example, there is less wage stagnation for programmers in quant hedge funds than there is in the tech industry; part of this is the clear p&l, of course, but perhaps there is a cultural / structural component as well? I'm not a programmer, but I once heard something that stood out to me: A friend, who was a senior programmer, discovered an inefficient process where he worked. In brief, whenever a certain "event" occurred, the company lost money; the senior programmer noticed this, and built a fix -- no more "events", and hence lots of money saved. From what he told me, my back of the envelope was that by building this (which took him about a week), he saved the company more than $600k a year. I mentioned to him that if he had come in as an outside consultant with a black box solution and offered to charge $100k a year to save the company $600k per year, there was a nonzero chance they would have said "yes"; he laughed and shrugged. This made me wonder whether there is something intrinsically non-value-capturing going on; perhaps (1) tech-industry programming doesn't have a culture of individual-value-capturing, or (2) the role of a programmer doesn't have the structural leverage to reliably capture value. Of course, this story is just anec-data; there may be no conclusions here.

Re: Pricing Programmers

#47
post #25

The labor market for programers in the tech industry has two features (anecdotally observed) that are interesting to me: 1. Labor does not receive (or insist on) percent-of-value or percent-of-transaction compensation. This is in contrast to some other professional disciplines (e.g., salespeople often get paid on a percentage or commission, bankers often take a % cut, pe / vc / hf has 2% and 20%, real estate is on a…

> out-of-college salaries for programming are often better than virtually everything else (notably, banking and consulting); but after ten years, the opposite is relationship is reversed (considerably so) Don't forget that there is huge flight from banking and consulting, but much less so for programming. Of 10 people who start as bankers or consultants, 80% will likely leave the industry within 5 years, and 90% with…

This is an interesting point; thanks! Found this article incase anyone is interested. One quote stood out to me:

> Private equity recruitment firm PER conducts an ‘unofficial count’ into how many analysts join the M&A and corporate finance teams of six leading banks in London. In 2010, PER calculated that 250 people joined a combination of Bank of America, Citigroup, Credit Suisse, Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan and Morgan Stanley. After tracking those individuals for three years, it recently calculated that 140 of them are still working in banking. That’s an attrition rate of 44%.

(http://news.efinancialcareers.com/us-en/139375/nearly-half-o...)

Re: Pricing Programmers

#48
Hiring gets a lot of attention, but pricing is vague there.

It is much easier to estimate the price of an already hired programmer with a track record known over years and who has knowhow of the company's infrastructure, style, and knows the interactions between people and teams.

Also, it is usually easy to estimate how much it would cost to replace the well-known, skilled programmer with a new hire so I might assume that a careful owner or manager would be eager to re-evaluate his/her price continuously and adjust their salary upwards regularly to basically re-hire the hired programmer, to re-establish the position over and over again.

But large or continuous salary increases are not that common. You generally have to change jobs to get a significant raise to your salary.

It seems to be companies are more careless and flimsy with spending money on new hires and more conservative and thrifty with spending money on their existing hires even if that behaviour is in direct opposition to the amount of betting they are required to do.

Re: Pricing Programmers

#49
post #48

Hiring gets a lot of attention, but pricing is vague there. It is much easier to estimate the price of an already hired programmer with a track record known over years and who has knowhow of the company's infrastructure, style, and knows the interactions between people and teams. Also, it is usually easy to estimate how much it would cost to replace the well-known, skilled programmer with a new hire so I might assume…

I think the companies many times view a new hire as an isolated event and a raise as systemic.

Re: Pricing Programmers

#50

"In the best case the programmer and the company will both think they are getting a good deal." IMO that is far from the best case. That allows "ignorance is bliss" and, at the other end of the malice spectrum, for one party to be taking advantage of the other. I once sold a rare trading card for $50. I thought I was getting a good deal, the other person knew it was worth much more than that and thought they were get…

What do you believe the best case is?
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