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Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

politico.eu

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Re: Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

#41

Post by mc32 »

jacquesm wrote: post #39
mc32 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they only care about their world and to further their own goals in the middle east and don't actually care about the west directly (we are a pretext), and don't plan to extend their power beyond their historic influence, how would anything happening in the west be to their benefit? They already have all their lines of reason to collectively paint the west as an enemy, the west can't be made "double enemy". It's al…

> They already have all their lines of reason to collectively paint the west as an enemy, the west can't be made "double enemy". Oh, we absolutely can. See, we could be a passive enemy and that would be good for them, but not as good as an enemy that actually engages. That's what drives the spiral of polarization and demonization. Without the spiral it stops at the first level and their recruiting power is reduced ac…

But would being a passive enemy simply allow them to run roughshod all over the middle east, consolidate power, disrupt energy resources, cause mass exuduses, unrest, power imbalances, civil factional wars, etc. which one might consider a sizable loss to the west?

I guess it depends what you mean by passive.

Re: Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

#42

Post by mcv »

mkaziz wrote: post #9

In my mind, the erosion of privacy and freedom - some of the most vaunted principles of the West - is the ultimate triumph of terrorist organizations like ISIS and Al-Qaeda. They can't beat us by strength of arms, so instead they're stunting our culture.

They're not stunting out culture, they're convincing us to stunt our culture, and we're giving in.

It's trivial for us to say no, and yet we don't.

Re: Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

#43

Post by Shivetya »

mkaziz wrote: post #9

In my mind, the erosion of privacy and freedom - some of the most vaunted principles of the West - is the ultimate triumph of terrorist organizations like ISIS and Al-Qaeda. They can't beat us by strength of arms, so instead they're stunting our culture.

effectively playing a similar game as being played out on college campuses, forcing the establish of safe spaces. Safe from freedom and rarely anything else.

Re: Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

#44

Post by JumpCrisscross »

crusso wrote: post #27
mkaziz wrote: post #9

In my mind, the erosion of privacy and freedom - some of the most vaunted principles of the West - is the ultimate triumph of terrorist organizations like ISIS and Al-Qaeda. They can't beat us by strength of arms, so instead they're stunting our culture.

That's because those freedoms work great when members of a society are seeking freedom as an end goal. When the end goal of significant numbers is despotism, collectivism, or hegemonic religious rule, those very freedoms become exploitable weaknesses. As my mom said, "This is why we can't have nice things."

> When the end goal of significant numbers is despotism, collectivism, or hegemonic religious rule, those very freedoms become exploitable weaknesses

Few people hold "despotism, collectivism, or hegemonic religious rule" as end games. Instead, freedom is traded for safety and stability for one's way of life.

Re: Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

#45

Post by vixen99 »

DougWebb wrote: post #37
mkaziz wrote: post #9

In my mind, the erosion of privacy and freedom - some of the most vaunted principles of the West - is the ultimate triumph of terrorist organizations like ISIS and Al-Qaeda. They can't beat us by strength of arms, so instead they're stunting our culture.

There was an article posted here a few weeks ago, written by a man who was held captive by ISIS for a long time. He said that he learned their ultimate goal has nothing to do with our culture or freedom. They believe armageddon is coming, that it is literaly going to be a big battle in a particular town in Syria near the Turkish border, and that the West is the enemy (descendants of the Roman empire) that their Mosle…

This view has also been put forward by Bernard Haykel who appears to be regarded as a notable secular authority on Islamic State. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Haykel

"What ISIS Really Wants" http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isi...

Re: Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

#46

Post by ameen »

DougWebb wrote: post #37
mkaziz wrote: post #9

In my mind, the erosion of privacy and freedom - some of the most vaunted principles of the West - is the ultimate triumph of terrorist organizations like ISIS and Al-Qaeda. They can't beat us by strength of arms, so instead they're stunting our culture.

There was an article posted here a few weeks ago, written by a man who was held captive by ISIS for a long time. He said that he learned their ultimate goal has nothing to do with our culture or freedom. They believe armageddon is coming, that it is literaly going to be a big battle in a particular town in Syria near the Turkish border, and that the West is the enemy (descendants of the Roman empire) that their Mosle…

Or Indifference?

IS never really threatened U.S. or Western interests, the Paris attacks were the first time they reached so far. They (along with the Syrian regime) have been butchering Syrians by the thousands.

Btw, the Daesh captive was Nicolas Henin, and he's actively campaigning against airstrikes [1] as that's exactly playing into their sick plans.

And he speaks that they're deluded enough to think they'll find support despite their inhumane acts. Muslims despise Daesh, heck the orthodox the individual their hatred for these individuals deepens.[2]

[1] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/02/nicolas-henin-v...

[2] Source: My family and friends, I'm a Muslim born in the holy city of Makkah, no one I know doesn't actively despise Daesh and their kind. Most of us identify more with western values.

Re: Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

#47

Post by mkaziz »

DougWebb wrote: post #37
mkaziz wrote: post #9

In my mind, the erosion of privacy and freedom - some of the most vaunted principles of the West - is the ultimate triumph of terrorist organizations like ISIS and Al-Qaeda. They can't beat us by strength of arms, so instead they're stunting our culture.

There was an article posted here a few weeks ago, written by a man who was held captive by ISIS for a long time. He said that he learned their ultimate goal has nothing to do with our culture or freedom. They believe armageddon is coming, that it is literaly going to be a big battle in a particular town in Syria near the Turkish border, and that the West is the enemy (descendants of the Roman empire) that their Mosle…

I didn't read the article, but my gut instinct would be that the people this man was held captive by were foot soldiers. They are frequently illiterate people who are fed such "prophecies" as truth.

I do contend with your statement about ISIS continuing to exist because of western compassion. If the West had the means to destroy them (without harming millions of innocent civilians), the compassionate thing to do would be to do it ASAP.

Re: Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

#48

Post by kvncombo »

mkaziz wrote: post #9

In my mind, the erosion of privacy and freedom - some of the most vaunted principles of the West - is the ultimate triumph of terrorist organizations like ISIS and Al-Qaeda. They can't beat us by strength of arms, so instead they're stunting our culture.

Erosion of privacy and freedom is inevitable. Mass human breeding on earth puts so much pressure on all aspects of our existence. I believe this will necessarily lead to reduced freedom as mere survival becomes more important. Small groups of people or even individuals have so much power and can inflict terrifying damage. How else do you solve such a problem? At the end of the day, people will demand the problem is solved.

Re: Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

#49

Post by mcv »

xixixao wrote: post #22
mc32 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's just a side effect. I don't think terrorists actually care that much about western society. They want to ultimately defeat the west at least ideologically, if not economically and ultimately militarily (in order they can further their own goals) So it's beside the point to them. Let's say someone wants your money, so in fear, you stop spending your money, stop bringing your wallet with you, the thief d…

Noooo. We cannot win the "war on terrorism" while people still have this misconception. The Islamic terrorist don't care about the west at all, their goal is to gain ground in countries with Islamic population. The only reason west got dragged into this war was because AL Quaida were miserably failing at this in the 90s, and so tried to create a common enemy: the west. I encourage everyone to read more on this topic…

One of the ways they try to gain support among Muslims, is by ensuring that Muslims feel hated and excluded by us. They want to convince them that there's no future in moderate Islam, they want all Muslims to believe this is an existential battle for them.

So if we exclude Muslims, send refugees back, discriminate, harass and bomb them, we are making ISIS correct in that claim. What we should be doing, is demonstrating that there is a future in moderate Islam. That we accept them as equals, rather than treat them as subhuman.

Re: Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

#50

Post by ianopolous »

kvncombo wrote: post #48
mkaziz wrote: post #9

In my mind, the erosion of privacy and freedom - some of the most vaunted principles of the West - is the ultimate triumph of terrorist organizations like ISIS and Al-Qaeda. They can't beat us by strength of arms, so instead they're stunting our culture.

Erosion of privacy and freedom is inevitable. Mass human breeding on earth puts so much pressure on all aspects of our existence. I believe this will necessarily lead to reduced freedom as mere survival becomes more important. Small groups of people or even individuals have so much power and can inflict terrifying damage. How else do you solve such a problem? At the end of the day, people will demand the problem is s…

Raising the lowest education level and the lowest happiness level would go a long way. i.e. a society that genuinely looks after and educates everyone. Easier said than done though.
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