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The Last Dalai Lama?

nytimes.com

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Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#41

Post by Alex3917 »

jmagoon wrote: post #39
Alex3917 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can't tell if you are talking about actual Buddhism or "Western Buddhism". This article doesn't have anything to do with Western Buddhism. It's about how what people currently believe/practice as Buddhism in Asia comes from the west. The point is that before 150 years ago there was no core set of ideas that could really be distilled into what we think of as Buddhism today. Rather there were just different peoples…

That's just really not true based on modern research. That's a fringe theory at best, that might be applicable to something like "Mainstream Buddhism". (e.g. what you see in a yoga magazine in the grocery store) There's quite an established corpus of Tibetan texts and monastic curriculum that has existed for the past 1000 or so years (depending on the tradition) that involve primary sources (Sanskrit Indian texts dat…

The argument is that it's the primacy of the ancient texts and practices that is recent, not the texts and practices themselves. (Again I'm not a historian, but nothing I've read or heard leads me to suspect that this is some sort of fringe theory.)

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#42

Post by DominikR »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #11
awl130 wrote: post #8

Western meddling in Sino-Tibetan affairs by the US government is understandable and is just international politics. But meddling by so-called 'anti-establishment' celebrities is the height of irony. The equivalent of Russell Brandt yelling "Free Tibet" at Glastonbury would be Al Wei Wei (famous Chinese social activist / artist) holding a concert in Shenzhen with proceeds going to some Singapore-based non-profit calle…

Well, I can imagine things like what you describe (regarding Cherokee Nation) and I won't find that especially odd. But Tibetians are much more numerous and they've lost their independence much more recently, making their case incomparable to that of Cherokee. Your parable is shaky. You seem to think that Dalai Lama issue is either solely about annoying China, or solely about self-presentation. It is not. People are…

> But Tibetians are much more numerous and they've lost their independence much more recently

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know the majority of Tibetans were before the Chinese slaves in an absolutist monarchy/theocracy that used extremely cruel torture and punishments. (amputation of limbs, skinning, cutting off ears/noses)

Let's be honest here, this whole Free Tibet business is just about pressuring the Chinese government and nothing else.

If it advances the US governments strategic goals then they will even support barbarians like ISIS.

Unfortunately for the US the Chinese government is quite resilient.

They are not even trying to stir something in Tibet anymore, that one has failed. Currently they are trying hard in the Muslim Uighur regions, but apparently it doesn't work any better.

The Chinese will just crush any externally supported resistance, they don't give a crap. Nor do the Russians.

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#44

Post by danans »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #9

The Chinese stance on Dalai Lama is kind of weird: They kind of recognise him, he is free to travel, nontheless they pressure other people to not see him. Seems like they can't explain what they're trying to do to themself.

Last I checked, he lives in exile outside of China. How would they have the ability to control his travel?

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#45

Post by notahacker »

Alex3917 wrote: post #38
npalli wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because it was basically invented by white folks in the last 150 years This is astonishing. Can you let us know which buddhist principles were invented by white folks (and by whom) in the past 150 years.

> Can you let us know which buddhist principles were invented by white folks (and by whom) in the past 150 years. I don't know to what extent individual principles or beliefs were created. Rather, the argument is that the religion as a whole was created by removing the parts that didn't fit the narrative. Think of it like the Jefferson Bible, but if pretty much the entire living tradition of Christianity was also rem…

That's a rather difficult argument to square with Buddhism still including two entirely separate traditions, and arguably its "purest", least syncretic and most devout forms being in those parts of the world least affected by the West...

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#46

Post by notahacker »

Alex3917 wrote: post #34
GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any idea of the size of the conspiracy that would be necessary to pull this off. Here are three things you need to explain just for starters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borobudur https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wat_Arun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_the_West

Well considering the argument is that what is practiced today as Buddhism is a small subset of what was believed/practiced previously, you would in fact expect all that stuff to exist... And the fact Borobudur was only excavated in the mid 1800s and wasn't reconstructed until recently isn't exactly evidence that it was still considered an important part of the religion before then.

Borobudur ceased to have religious significance because the Javanese switched to Islam

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#47

Post by [deleted] »

Alex3917 wrote: post #20
blinkingled wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Because it was basically invented by white folks in the last 150 years Invented by white folks? What? Did you perhaps mean they made it mainstream for white people by giving it a western flavor?

No, iirc the religion was constructed pretty much wholesale during the opium wars to convince people that the Chinese were an intelligent people with a rich cultural history who we shouldn't be genociding. There are a bunch of books about it, this blog post gives an overview of the situation and links to a bunch of the books: https://meaningness.wordpress.com/2011/06/28/a-new-world-rel... I haven't really spent any t…

[deleted]

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#48

Post by ivoras »

nkurz wrote: post #2

"The Dalai Lama’s second-oldest brother, Gyalo Thondup, helped the C.I.A. train Tibetan guerrillas in Colorado, among other places, and parachute them back into Tibet." I had no idea the US had done this. This link has more details: http://www.historynet.com/cias-secret-war-in-tibet.htm As does Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_Tibetan_program

Some sources hold that the US hasn't ever stopped doing such shenanigans.

I wonder what will be thought of articles such as https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/iraqis-thin... a decade or two in the future.

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#49

Post by nostromo »

Alex3917 wrote: post #13
guard-of-terra wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I can imagine things like what you describe (regarding Cherokee Nation) and I won't find that especially odd. But Tibetians are much more numerous and they've lost their independence much more recently, making their case incomparable to that of Cherokee. Your parable is shaky. You seem to think that Dalai Lama issue is either solely about annoying China, or solely about self-presentation. It is not. People are…

> People are genuinely interested in Buddhism because it looks elegant and less stained than other major religions. Because it was basically invented by white folks in the last 150 years and designed to appeal to those with scientific mindset. I'm not saying that's bad, but it's a little propagandistic not to acknowledge it.

I don't think "invented by white folks" is fair. It's more of a collaboration. When East met West, both cultures were changed, and Buddhism is no exception.

Here's a good book on the subject:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195183274/

> This sweeping and sophisticated analysis of the ways in which westerners and Asians alike have constructed new forms of Buddhism under the pressures of modernity is thoroughly disillusioning, in the best sense of the word. McMahan shows that much of what has been written and said about Buddhism in the modern era only can be understood against the background of dominant western discourses.

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#50

Post by jmagoon »

Alex3917 wrote: post #41
jmagoon wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just really not true based on modern research. That's a fringe theory at best, that might be applicable to something like "Mainstream Buddhism". (e.g. what you see in a yoga magazine in the grocery store) There's quite an established corpus of Tibetan texts and monastic curriculum that has existed for the past 1000 or so years (depending on the tradition) that involve primary sources (Sanskrit Indian texts dat…

The argument is that it's the primacy of the ancient texts and practices that is recent, not the texts and practices themselves. (Again I'm not a historian, but nothing I've read or heard leads me to suspect that this is some sort of fringe theory.)

It's hard to argue, because you could pick up literally any textbook on Buddhism to see this is a fringe theory.

If you are actually curious about this topic, I would suggest you look up the importance of lineage in the Tibetan, Chinese, Vietnamese, Korean, Mongolian, and Japanese traditions. Warm hand to warm hand, as it is called, is extremely important. Lineage is legitimacy, and it's always the first line of defense against charlatans. That means that the most important thing in those actual traditions is where a practice comes from and who the teacher is (and their teacher, and theirs, etc.). It's even fair to say that the de-emphasis of lineage and tradition exists only in "Western" or "Mainstream" Buddhism.

If you're curious, Buddhist Geeks has long been far from the academic mainstream and has more recently gone much, much farther out.

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