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Google, do not take Chinese netizens hostage

english.people.com.cn

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Re: Google, do not take Chinese netizens hostage

#41

Post by chrischen »

est wrote: post #24
jhickner wrote: post #5

"The Chinese society has generally less information bearing capacity than developed countries such as the U.S., which is an objective reality that no one can deny." The concept of societal "information bearing capacity" blows my mind. What a fascinating and bizarre rationalization. So inside that mindset, preventing access to information is a a public service!

Chinese here. This kind of BS derives from a more common theory: Chinese people don't deserve democracy because they are not well educated. It's stated on many official newspapers and comments. TFA is just a little elaboration. You can find even funnier nonsense everyday everywhere from Chinese politics news. The CCP behavior is hilarious to watch, Internet users in China loving posting pre-1949 propaganda from CCP,…

While I agree with the idea that democracy will not work properly on an uneducated population, I think that's no longer true in China, and instead of relaxing it's controls, China's increasing them.

I think perhaps the arrogance is from the Chinese side in not wanting to be told what to do, and not from the rest of the developed world. If they really do not want to learn and borrow from the developed world, they should stop pirating western films and music and stop stealing western technological advancements as well as rejecting developed political advancements like freedom of information that conveniently happens to weaken the grip of the CCP.

They clearly admit they are developing, then what other reason would they have to reject the advice of developed nations except to push away the specific advancements that could potentially disturb the balance of power.

The Chinese is stance is highly arrogant and hypocritical.

Re: Google, do not take Chinese netizens hostage

#42

Post by bluedanieru »

"Several days before Google declared that it planned to withdraw from China, the U.S. Secretary of State Hilary Clinton held a small evening dinner party. The guests she invited were just the leaders of the powerful information enterprises such as the Microsoft, Twitter and Google. The two affairs were so close that people would unavoidably think they were connected. After this political affliction, Google has already made itself in an awkward situation. If it withdraws from China, it will lose a market consisting of 360 million netizens; if it does not, it will be hijacked by the U.S. government."

So the People's Daily is accusing a US corporation of being a tool of the US government.

Don't I fucking wish.

Re: Google, do not take Chinese netizens hostage

#44

Post by chrischen »

potatolicious wrote: post #33
est wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese here. This kind of BS derives from a more common theory: Chinese people don't deserve democracy because they are not well educated. It's stated on many official newspapers and comments. TFA is just a little elaboration. You can find even funnier nonsense everyday everywhere from Chinese politics news. The CCP behavior is hilarious to watch, Internet users in China loving posting pre-1949 propaganda from CCP,…

The saddest part is I know many Chinese in my age group who would cheer this article on, and commend the author for having the courage to stand up to American imperialism. I think many of us expected popular support for the Communist regime to drop over time - but we're seeing the opposite, and that's gravely concerning.

I think a surprising number of your friends (and mine) are probably driven by nationalism. I'm not a big fan of nationalism, and don't swing any particular way when it comes to race or country. I do however actively support specific policies and ideas.

But particularly for minorities in countries nationalism provides an easy way for self-identity. You'd want to be able to be proud of some specific fact about yourself and unfortunately nationality is a particularly easy way for minorities like the Chinese (in the US) to do this.

And so this easily leads to American raised Chinese to jump on board supporting their home country. The alternative is to admit that their special home country needs advice from the US. Perhaps they weren't properly (or weren't in the US long enough) brainwashed to accept democracy, but something is causing them to think that they understand the complex policies better than the rest of the developed world simply because they lived there once.

I also know a Chinese international student in Canada for college who insists that I am brainwashed by the west. I think that's a pretty bold statement since it pretty much implies that I was too stupid to distinguish the noise from the truths when I learn shit, since the fundamental difference between the democratic world and the communist world is that in the democratic world the truth is always there no matter how much shit is piled on top of it and in the communist world they just pile shit on your face and actively try to hold the truths out of reach.

I think with the silly gaffs like the little girl who was lip syncing at the olympics that the CCP is still tripping over itself on universally backwards policies, and that all this is not just a case of the west trying to assert its cultural differences onto China.

Re: Google, do not take Chinese netizens hostage

#45

Post by fauigerzigerk »

"Therefore, implementing monitoring according to a country's national context is what any government has to do."

There are two big questions:

1) What legitimizes a government to to define "national context" and the will of the people? Or simply, what legitimizes government?

2) If government is legitimate, what are the limits of its mandate where an individual's fundamental rights are concerned?

Western governments can claim to express the will of the people because it is the people who have elected them (directly or indirectly). The Chinese government's power is based on a military campaign many decades ago. It cannot claim to speak for the chinese people. The laws it makes are nothing but the the will of a clique of people with guns.

The second question is a very difficult one. Where do fundamental individual rights come from? Who defines them with any legitimacy? Does it have something to do with nature or psychology or are the relative to culture? I don't know, but I do know that I want to claim individual rights independently of any collective expression of opinion and power, and everyone else I know wants to do that as well.

If western governments run a system of censorship it may in many cases be a violation of fundamental individual rights. That doesn't change the fact that it may at the same time be a legitimate expression of the will of the people. It may be the will of the people to violate fundamental individual rights. That's the contradiction we in the west have to grapple with, and it's totally different from the problem the Chinese have with their clique of men with guns holding them hostage.

Re: Google, do not take Chinese netizens hostage

#46

Post by DrJokepu »

wavesplash wrote: post #39
potatolicious wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The saddest part is I know many Chinese in my age group who would cheer this article on, and commend the author for having the courage to stand up to American imperialism. I think many of us expected popular support for the Communist regime to drop over time - but we're seeing the opposite, and that's gravely concerning.

Same here. Oddly it seems the older generation was much more flexible in their thinking. What's interesting is how agile the CCP has become. We call it 'communist' but it no longer resembles any of the Marxist ideals we usually associate with it. They react quickly and have been using capitalism/modernization/nation-building as a very effective carrot. This isn't the old stagnant hard-line Soviet communism by any mea…

I don't think anyone seriously believes that China is a communist country (in practice). It's a good old-fashioned dictatorship.

Re: Google, do not take Chinese netizens hostage

#47

Post by est »

coderdude wrote: post #8
pyre wrote: post #6

I noticed that no where in the article is there any mention of the actual reason that Google came out with this announcement (i.e. they were (cyber) attacked by sources that were presumably linked with the Chinese government). It seems to only be talking about censorship and comparing China to other Western countries.

If I were a Chinese citizen I'd avoid mentioning my government at all costs.

We (Chinese) have already tried that for what, 2000 years.

The problem with Chinese authorities through out history is, you don't look for troubles, but troubles look for you.

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