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Transgender children and gender dysphoria

theguardian.com

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Re: Transgender children and gender dysphoria

#41

Post by rabboRubble »

Uhhrrr wrote: post #26

The worrisome thing here is that batman outfits and swords are used as proof of the "boy" identity and pink princess stuff as proof of the "girl" identity. This is complete crap - gender roles are not dictated by which aisle of Toys 'R' Us you favor. I am willing to grant that the children profiled in the article aren't just in it for the toys, but the author is encouraging this perception, and I have seen more than…

I am a woman...

I felt a level of jealousy in school because of the freedom boys had (ex. girls were made to stay indoors to learn where babies came from, whereas boys were sent out to play) but never wished for a "winky".

I have also loathed pink from childhood and fashion crap. I see a little girl's room looking like a Peptobismal explosion and I want to take a flame thrower to it. And anything sparkly. And anything encrusted with fake gems. And anything cutsy really.

I see these assemblages of abhorrent things being passed off as gender "girl" and it's very hard to separate my loathing for cutsy pink crap, and the transgirl wearing the cutsy pink crap. It may come off as transphobia, but I sort of hate non-trans women wearing crap like that too.

Re: Transgender children and gender dysphoria

#42

Post by rabboRubble »

gizmo686 wrote: post #37
danieltillett wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Now, that said, kids should be free to wear whatever the hell they want I am none too keen seeing young girls wearing heavy make up. Children should be able to be children and not little adults.

What is inherently "adult" about makeup?

Using it incorrectly can lead to skin conditions and eye infections. As such, it takes a degree of maturity to use it without sickening yourself.

Re: Transgender children and gender dysphoria

#43

Post by monksy »

dang wrote: post #8

Some users flagged this submission, but the article is substantive, so we're going to try turning flags off. Since the topic is controversial, please keep this thread a thoughtful one. Edit: thank you all for keeping this thread a thoughtful one.

How is this article considered to be ontopic for Hacker News?

From the guidelines page:

< Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.

Re: Transgender children and gender dysphoria

#44

Post by bcoates »

imh wrote: post #11

Reading this article made me realize I have no idea what "gender" is. It used to be synonymous with what parts and chromosomes you have, where there are no questions of "I identify as XYZ," but now what the hell is it really? All the fluidity and tension created by gender makes me think why don't we just get rid of it? Stop making children conform to social norms/behavior/dressing/everything based on their sex. Drop…

'Gender' does not have consistent usage in the English language, aside from the grammar sense of masculine/feminine words.

Aside from that, it's sometimes used to describe a performed social role, or more broadly anything that communicates "masculine" or "feminine". Sometimes it's used to describe an objective, distinct axis of male/female from the "parts and chromosomes". Sometimes it's used as a synonym for "sex", either out of puritanism or to stop people from answering "yes, please". Some assert that applying "gender" to people or any non-grammar usage is an error.

Just to make things more complicated, large groups of people have attached political significance to one or another of these definitions and assert that the others are Wrong and/or Ignorant.

It's a mess of recent vintage that apparently only English speakers have to suffer from.

Re: Transgender children and gender dysphoria

#45

Post by lmm »

dang wrote: post #8

Some users flagged this submission, but the article is substantive, so we're going to try turning flags off. Since the topic is controversial, please keep this thread a thoughtful one. Edit: thank you all for keeping this thread a thoughtful one.

Substantive? Maybe. On-topic for HN? No.

(I trust the rule that we're supposed to flag and move on rather than complaining about submissions being off-topic no longer applies since you've turned off flagging)

Re: Transgender children and gender dysphoria

#46

Post by Sharlin »

lmm wrote: post #45
dang wrote: post #8

Some users flagged this submission, but the article is substantive, so we're going to try turning flags off. Since the topic is controversial, please keep this thread a thoughtful one. Edit: thank you all for keeping this thread a thoughtful one.

Substantive? Maybe. On-topic for HN? No. (I trust the rule that we're supposed to flag and move on rather than complaining about submissions being off-topic no longer applies since you've turned off flagging)

I don't know what your definition for "satisfies intellectual curiosity" is but this article definitely does it for me. Sexuality and gender issues are fascinating, as is developmental psychology.

Re: Transgender children and gender dysphoria

#47

Post by lmm »

Sharlin wrote: post #46
lmm wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Substantive? Maybe. On-topic for HN? No. (I trust the rule that we're supposed to flag and move on rather than complaining about submissions being off-topic no longer applies since you've turned off flagging)

I don't know what your definition for "satisfies intellectual curiosity" is but this article definitely does it for me. Sexuality and gender issues are fascinating , as is developmental psychology.

I find the subject fascinating (and, FWIW, extremely personally relevant). But I didn't find this article at all satisfying; too much is anecdote, the Guardian is too far from neutral (and I say that as a reader and fan of a lot of their work), and parts of it ring false in terms of my own experience (contrast e.g. e.g. Wandering Son (Hōrō Musuko), which felt very true-to-life for me - though I guess it's possible things have changed in the years since I was a schoolchild). To satisfy intellectual curiosity requires a level of intellectual honesty that I don't think is here.

Re: Transgender children and gender dysphoria

#48

Post by wglb »

imh wrote: post #11

Reading this article made me realize I have no idea what "gender" is. It used to be synonymous with what parts and chromosomes you have, where there are no questions of "I identify as XYZ," but now what the hell is it really? All the fluidity and tension created by gender makes me think why don't we just get rid of it? Stop making children conform to social norms/behavior/dressing/everything based on their sex. Drop…

Reading this article made me realize I have no idea what "gender" is. It used to be synonymous with what parts and chromosomes you have, where there are no questions of "I identify as XYZ," but now what the hell is it really? All the fluidity and tension created by gender makes me think why don't we just get rid of it? Stop making children conform to social norms/behavior/dressing/everything based on their sex.

You may be interested in a book titled The medical invention of Sex. One wonders just how much this is a social notion.

Re: Transgender children and gender dysphoria

#49

Post by dogma1138 »

gbanfalvi wrote: post #25
gnah wrote: post #14

If I had grown up in a culture this accepting of transgender people I would have transitioned. That would have been the worst decision of my life. I've grown into my identity as a man since then and I'm thankful for my parents and society pushing me in the right direction. We need to be careful to avoid putting borderline cases like me into a group with such high rates of suicide and depression.

You would have only transitioned after lots (maybe years) of sessions with doctors and therapists where they would have made sure that it's really what you need. As the article mentions, the biggest change right now is delaying puberty for some kids so that if they _are_ trans, they get the chance to transition more easily later in life. Regardless, I'm glad that you're happy with your body.

Delaying puberty and sexual maturation is quite odd in this case.

It's a bit hard to know what gender you identify as when you aren't even remotely sexually mature hormonal and neurological changes during puberty might be a very important factor. And while yes sex isn't equal gender in this case but it still means allot. If you pump a man full of estrogen and make him feel like a woman you'll might be able to push him hard enough to identify as one.

Re: Transgender children and gender dysphoria

#50

Post by dang »

monksy wrote: post #43
dang wrote: post #8

Some users flagged this submission, but the article is substantive, so we're going to try turning flags off. Since the topic is controversial, please keep this thread a thoughtful one. Edit: thank you all for keeping this thread a thoughtful one.

How is this article considered to be ontopic for Hacker News? From the guidelines page: < Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.

I'm pretty sure that both the topic and the story gratify the intellectual curiosity of quite a few good hackers, so the lines you quoted are the answer to your question. Certainly not all of us are interested in this, but that's true of nearly everything on the front page, so the standard can't be that tight.

Articles on divisive issues are often so tendentious that the threads inevitably become flamewars, so users have gotten in the habit of flagging them. That's ok in some cases, but we don't want it to become mechanical; the purpose should be to foster quality, not exclude topics. So it becomes important to keep an eye out for the exceptions. I think this was one.

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