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Paris: You Don’t Want to Read This

ronpaulinstitute.org

41–50 of 69 posts

Re: Paris: You Don’t Want to Read This

#41
post #28

Islamic 'terror' started long before colonialism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests People often forget this, but 1000 years ago Islamic armies were in Spain, Italy, and had conquered 'Roman' lands. 500 years ago they attacked Russia, the Balkans, and central Europe. While the actions of the west may have inflamed things more recently, they were attacking us long before western 'colonialism'.

When do you think colonialism started? Christopher Columbus? The British Empire? Check out these pre-Islamic colonizers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_history_of_the_Roman_...

What were those expansionary battles? Hellenistic terrorism?

Saying Islamic imperialism in the 1000's was terrorism (like they were the only ones doing it!) is like Richard Dawkins levels of tone deaf racist hyperbole. Do you want to be like Richard Dawkins?

Re: Paris: You Don’t Want to Read This

#43
post #24

Regarding Iraq (since it comes up in some other comments) one could (I am playing devil's advocate here) make the argument that the Iraq war was a just war on false assumptions. What reasons do you need to remove a dictator? 0) He does not respect territorial integrity of neighbour states 1) He houses international wanted terrorists, makes it possible for them to hide 2) He commits crimes against humanity (unjust pri…

Saddam was a terrible dictator, but what the US created was much, much worse. We can learn something from Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya. Toppling a dictator doesn't automatically create a new, civilized society. Even promising uprisings like the Libyan uprising of 2011 don't guarantee a good outcome. In Iraq, the US created a huge power vacuum by decapitating the state — removing not just Saddam, but the entire civil a…

> It's like nobody on the US side had studied any history whatsoever.

It certainly seemed like that, though its more likely the actual problem was that the people at the highest levels of authority on the US side consistently ignored and overrode the people that had studied history and learned from it, listening instead to the people that had not, because the latter were saying more pleasing to the decision-makers ideological preconceptions.

Its not like the uniformed military leadership of the time somehow, in a historical aberration, managed to include only people who were completely ignorant of every past experience of occupation of formerly-hostile territory everywhere, including the occupations of Japan and Germany after WWII.

Re: Paris: You Don’t Want to Read This

#44

The only solution to end this is economics. Where people are not economically well off, these will happen, people are terrorists for a reason and it wasn't because their life was great. We left Iraq susceptible without a Marshall Plan like economic effort after the military effort like we did in Japan and Europe after WWII. We downgraded the quality of life and that is not the direction things need to go for peace. T…

> Where people are not economically well off, these will happen, people are terrorists for a reason and it wasn't because their life was great.

That's false, there is absolutely no correlation between being poor and wanting to slaughter thousands of innocents. One simple example : Bin Laden who comes from a filthy rich background. He never lacked on something in his life , his family was ultra rich, yet he created and financed a terrorist organization.

There is however an absolute causation between giving loads of money to folks in KSA who spread an hateful ideology like Wahhabism and terrorism.

I'm absolutely sick about this b-llsh-t explanation that just paint the poor as potential terrorists just because they are poor. No. No.

> Our strategy in Iran (and Cuba) is actually the best one we have going.

It's funny you talk about Cuba because , it contradicts what you just said. There should have been cubans terrorists blowing themselves up in the streets of USA because of they've been forced into poverty thanks to US blockade for 60 years. In 60 years it never happened. And the reason why is that they don't subscribe to a specific ideology and culture.

Re: Paris: You Don’t Want to Read This

#45
post #34

The only solution to end this is economics. Where people are not economically well off, these will happen, people are terrorists for a reason and it wasn't because their life was great. We left Iraq susceptible without a Marshall Plan like economic effort after the military effort like we did in Japan and Europe after WWII. We downgraded the quality of life and that is not the direction things need to go for peace. T…

On the contrary, surprisingly enough, it does not seem to be the case that poverty causes terrorism--either within a country (poorer people aren't more likely to become terrorists) or between countries (people from poorer countries aren't more likely to become terrorists). https://www.nber.org/digest/sep02/w9074.html http://www.economist.com/node/17730424

Thanks for the links, I found the OP's message just insulting to the poor people. Those who pull the strings of terrorism are well usually off and with a political agenda that couldn't care less about poverty.

Re: Paris: You Don’t Want to Read This

#46
post #44

The only solution to end this is economics. Where people are not economically well off, these will happen, people are terrorists for a reason and it wasn't because their life was great. We left Iraq susceptible without a Marshall Plan like economic effort after the military effort like we did in Japan and Europe after WWII. We downgraded the quality of life and that is not the direction things need to go for peace. T…

> Where people are not economically well off, these will happen, people are terrorists for a reason and it wasn't because their life was great. That's false, there is absolutely no correlation between being poor and wanting to slaughter thousands of innocents. One simple example : Bin Laden who comes from a filthy rich background. He never lacked on something in his life , his family was ultra rich, yet he created an…

Possibly, but Bin Laden wasn't the one with the bomb strapped on. He was more akin to a king sending peasants to die.

It is a fact though that lower economical areas have more crime and less opportunity. It would be harder to recruit the foot soldiers. It will always be the plebs that have the power to continue or end it, and one way they might choose to end it is because they have a comfortable life.

Look at Brazil, the inequality there, on the lower end human life means nothing. In conditions like that crime, terror, desperation will make people do anything to survive.

While I agree this ideology is different, most strong ideologies arise out of a lack of economic options.

If suddenly your house got bombed, members of your family died, and you lost the ability to survive economically, you'd probably survive however you can even if that means blowing something up for money for your family. People aren't born suicide bombers or terrorists, the environment around them forms that.

I am simply saying one known way to win hearts and minds is to help economically and give options to people susceptible to it. I am not saying poor people are terrorists, I am saying terrorism (or at least desperation crime) can grow in lower economical areas for recruiting more easily, and the only way to combat that is with better economics and opportunity. The same happens in inner cities with gangs, high unemployment etc. [1][2]

Equally decisive in determining crime rates are the more invisible barriers to crime set up by social norms and social cohesion. Indeed, one of the most robust statistical patterns known is that crime rates tend to go up with rising economic inequality, which itself tends to go along with erosion of social trust.

[1] http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2013-01-06/want-to-fig...

[2] http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/crimwage.htm

Re: Paris: You Don’t Want to Read This

#47

The only solution to end this is economics. Where people are not economically well off, these will happen, people are terrorists for a reason and it wasn't because their life was great. We left Iraq susceptible without a Marshall Plan like economic effort after the military effort like we did in Japan and Europe after WWII. We downgraded the quality of life and that is not the direction things need to go for peace. T…

> Where people are not economically well off, these will happen, people are terrorists for a reason and it wasn't because their life was great.

I agree that social and economic context is relevant, but its very not a simple "when people are not economically well off, these will happen"; not only are many terrorists well off (both in local and global terms), lots of regions which are poor aren't breeding grounds for terrorism, either of the local or international varieties.

While I think its quite likely that desperation frequently plays a role in people deciding to become terrorist foot soldiers (the kind of people who become leaders without first being foot soldiers are probably driven by different forces), I don't think mere poverty is enough (poverty may in some cases be a component, though.)

Re: Paris: You Don’t Want to Read This

#48
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where people are not economically well off, these will happen, people are terrorists for a reason and it wasn't because their life was great. That's false, there is absolutely no correlation between being poor and wanting to slaughter thousands of innocents. One simple example : Bin Laden who comes from a filthy rich background. He never lacked on something in his life , his family was ultra rich, yet he created an…

Possibly, but Bin Laden wasn't the one with the bomb strapped on. He was more akin to a king sending peasants to die. It is a fact though that lower economical areas have more crime and less opportunity. It would be harder to recruit the foot soldiers. It will always be the plebs that have the power to continue or end it, and one way they might choose to end it is because they have a comfortable life. Look at Brazil,…

> Look at Brazil, the inequality there, on the lower end human life means nothing. In conditions like that crime, terror, desperation will make people do anything to survive.

For god's sake France is not Brazil ! In France one earns more money doing nothing living on welfare than the minimum wage in Portugal, and the cost of living is not that higher, so no, please stop.

> Possibly, but Bin Laden wasn't the one with the bomb strapped on.

Exactly, and the poor folk in middle wasn't the one blowing himself up in that theater. Someone who has never experienced true poverty did kill 100+ people. Someone born in France who got free healthcare, free college, and a ton of welfare paid by hardworking people blew himself up. So the poverty argument is B-LLSH-T .

Re: Paris: You Don’t Want to Read This

#49
post #3

"Stop disenfranchising the Muslims who live with us." or they will kill us? While a big believer in developing infrastructure, education, etc. I think we also have to address the zealots in every "disenfranchised" group that might start killing us. Not sure how to do that.

> I think we also have to address the zealots in every "disenfranchised" group that might start killing us. Not sure how to do that.

Stop disenfranchising groups?

Re: Paris: You Don’t Want to Read This

#50
The very idea that any foreigner living thousands miles away could better understand and solve complex problem local people struggling for decades(even centuries) makes me sick. So does the idea that any rational organisation would commit to decades long nation-building projects.

No matter how wealthy the rest of the world combined, we just don't have enough resource (including political capital to support long term commitment) to solve the mid-east problem, let alone various calculations every participating countries might entertains.

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