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Dizzying Ride May Be Ending for Startups

nytimes.com

41–50 of 128 posts

Re: Dizzying Ride May Be Ending for Startups

#41
post #9

It's time for a new term: a "Pegasus" (a different kind of mythical horse than a unicorn): https://twitter.com/jgrahamc/status/658702918200250368 Pegasus (n) 1. Mythical winged horse; 2. Silicon Valley 'unicorn' with high gross margin. i.e. one that might actually take off.

I'd suggest Icarus.

Flying high on wings of wax - until the sun gets too hot.

Re: Dizzying Ride May Be Ending for Startups

#42
post #12

it's ending again? Wasn't it supposed to end the year before, and the year before that, and the year before that? When is google going to just drop news.google.com and have an algorithm write the same stories over every year? Next up: The next [pick top product] killer! you won't believe how [pick new or underdog product] is going to completely replace [pick top product] due to it's [pick random feature in [pick new…

Funny, folks used the same line of reasoning prior to the real estate bubble popping in 2007-2008. But, that doesn't stop the Pollyanna's...

If news like this had any predictive value then journalists would be the richest group in the world.

Re: Dizzying Ride May Be Ending for Startups

#43

If Fidelity just did a 25% write down on SnapChat on the most senior portion of a $600m investment round, and assuming that Fidelity has at least a 1x liquidity pref/ratchet, then SnapChat is now valued at $462M floor, not $15 billion.

Peter Gregory is definitely, posthumously, very disappointed in SnapChat.

Re: Dizzying Ride May Be Ending for Startups

#44

it's ending again? Wasn't it supposed to end the year before, and the year before that, and the year before that? When is google going to just drop news.google.com and have an algorithm write the same stories over every year? Next up: The next [pick top product] killer! you won't believe how [pick new or underdog product] is going to completely replace [pick top product] due to it's [pick random feature in [pick new…

This is a sad and futile argument.

You're also trusting too much in Twitter tech celebrities.

Re: Dizzying Ride May Be Ending for Startups

#45
post #14

For those of you too young to remember, there were numerous articles written about the bubble bursting before it finally did in 2000-01. It wasn't a surprise that it did, just that no one knew precisely when it would. My point is that arguing that people have said this bubble was about to burst and that it hasn't yet isn't an argument that it won't.

And some of those articles were from 1998 . It can take a long time for a bubble to burst. I remember hearing about the housing bubble in 2001. It even made the front cover of the Economist in 2005. As Keanes said "The market can stay irrational for longer than you can stay solvent".

The housing bubble was a special case. It was more or less impossible to short until fairly late in the game (i.e. approximately the time when Burry actually did) - the market for CDS was not very liquid until synthetic CDOs came into the picture.

Re: Dizzying Ride May Be Ending for Startups

#46
post #29
post #14

For those of you too young to remember, there were numerous articles written about the bubble bursting before it finally did in 2000-01. It wasn't a surprise that it did, just that no one knew precisely when it would. My point is that arguing that people have said this bubble was about to burst and that it hasn't yet isn't an argument that it won't.

The problem with this type of reasoning is that there are always analysts predicting a bear market. Articles arguing as such come out every day. So it's easy to find an article from the late 90s that said a crash is coming and feel vindicated that that person was right among so many fools. Perhaps that analyst was brilliant and his argument was flawlessly researched, but anyone can build a bubble story over rising P/…

You're misunderstanding the essential point of @hvs's comment: it's not that some people predicted the bust (though that was certainly true), it's that the articles that indicated a bust was coming helped instill a collective sense the boom couldn't last forever. This is very important because it preconditions everyone for the bust -- and when the bust comes, it accelerates stunningly quickly. Having lived through two of these (the dot-com bust and the housing bust) that is my overwhelming conclusion: that the boom goes on much longer than you could think possible, but once it turns into bust, it turns with a vengeance that you cannot imagine. And I'm not alone in this conclusion; Marc Andreessen (famously) phrased this as startups that will "vaporize"[1] -- because we are the generation that saw it first hand.

Until then (and as was said to me at the height of the dot-com bubble by someone who was then three times my age[2]): enjoy the party -- but dance close to the door!

[1] https://twitter.com/pmarca/status/515216965183754242

[2] https://twitter.com/bcantrill/status/572952707788505088

Re: Dizzying Ride May Be Ending for Startups

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a rule, bubbles only burst after everybody gives up on claiming they will.

Because that's when even the bears have been stopped into longs.

And it's when the press has already moved full power into bringing more people to the market, and when people with doubts (and thus some spare money) have already invested, and people that didn't invest are feeling foolish, so they won't convince other people.

And, probably, more reasons. That's one contrary indicator that seems to be very reliable.

Re: Dizzying Ride May Be Ending for Startups

#48

Sam Altman has already explained why late-stage private valuations -- but not earlier-stage or public valuations -- are bubble-like right now: >To summarize: there does not appear to be a tech bubble in the public markets. There does not appear to be a bubble in early or mid stages of the private markets. There does appear to be a bubble in the late-stage private companies, but that’s because people are misunderstand…

There is a bubble at the seed stage. There are tons of people (accredited investors) investing that stage and tons of incubators/accelerators to help introduce those startups to those investors. Platforms like Angel list are helping fund allot more companies at the seed stage by having syndicates. Now even non-accredited investors will be able to invest in startups[1]. So the seed stage is bubbling up. http://www.usn…

It's not really possible for there to be a bubble at the seed stage -- valuations at that stage are "paper" values because there's zero liquidity. Companies also tend not to stay in the seed stage for long enough to cause an asset bubble; they are either able to acquire follow-on funding (at which point they're no longer a "seed" company) or they aren't and they disappear.

The seed stage is increasingly crowded, but IMO that's a good thing.

Re: Dizzying Ride May Be Ending for Startups

#49
post #14

For those of you too young to remember, there were numerous articles written about the bubble bursting before it finally did in 2000-01. It wasn't a surprise that it did, just that no one knew precisely when it would. My point is that arguing that people have said this bubble was about to burst and that it hasn't yet isn't an argument that it won't.

And some of those articles were from 1998 . It can take a long time for a bubble to burst. I remember hearing about the housing bubble in 2001. It even made the front cover of the Economist in 2005. As Keanes said "The market can stay irrational for longer than you can stay solvent".

Exactly. When I say things that seem outrageous, and get downvoted or called out, like claiming Google is past it's peak, I'm aware it may take a couple years for public opinion or actual monetary figures to catch up. I called the antitrust investigations around Android which have been opening up this year, a couple years ago.

People are quick to downvote and say you're crazy, but often, you're just early. And it can definitely take time for public opinion (which drives things like stock) to catch up.

Re: Dizzying Ride May Be Ending for Startups

#50

Fidelity has just marked its shares down from $30.72 at the end of June to $22.91 for the end of September. To be fair, I think these markdowns have more to do with who is investing than the companies themselves. VC's do portfolio valuations much less frequently than mutual funds, PE firms or hedge funds do and they give less negative scrutiny to the valuation than the aforementioned firms do, the reason for this....…

Thanks for the explanation of the different incentive structures for VCs vs. mutual/hedge funds.

Can you explain where large mutual funds get the money that they invest in the late rounds of these private companies? Is it mostly institutional/pension/retirement funds?

Who is losing when Fidelity writes down a late stage investment in a private company? I'm assuming the fund manager, but do the investors lose as well, or will they only lose if it causes a panic/bank rush with all investors clamoring to withdraw from the fund asap?

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