The After-Work Email Quandry • Hacker News Board

Re: The After-Work Email Quandry

#41

Post by cryoshon » Mon, Nov 09, 2015, 5:42 PM UTC

Just another symptom of dehumanizing work-life balance as promoted in the US companies. People feel like they need to get a leg up on each other in order to retain jobs and be promoted within jobs, so they make themselves available for work purposes when they are not being paid. Effectively, people compensate for the wriggling anxiety of an "unfulfilled" work obligation (an unanswered email received after hours) by giving away their labor for free (answering the email despite not being paid during that time period to do so). I think this is also why people may claim that they enjoy or don't mind answering work emails after work; the reduction of anxiety after tying up an email provides a tangible upward delta for emotion. I am of the opinion that 99% of after-work emails would be eliminated if employers had to pay for the hour-block during which employees are answering emails.

"But when asked what aspects have the most negative impact on work-life balance, work emails ranked rather low at 18 percent—topping the list were bad bosses, working after hours, and employers being inflexible about vacation."

Ah, the article is pretending that answering emails after hours isn't working after hours. They're the same thing, because thought and communication about details of work equals work. Bad bosses will tend to email after hours as well. Employers not respecting the majority of their employee's time (which is spent outside of work) is also closely related to being "inflexible" (not respecting the contract) about vacation. I think the article could have easily said that working conditions and labor rights in the US are extremely poor rather than pretend there is something magical about answering emails after hours.

Re: The After-Work Email Quandry

#42

Post by vvanders » Mon, Nov 09, 2015, 5:42 PM UTC

stronglikedan wrote: post #29

thecatspaw wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont know why people feel the need to check their emails after work. I feel the same way you do. It makes no sense to me to do something for work without getting paid for it

Unfortunately, most companies think that they own you 24/7 as soon as they put you on salary. To them, you are getting paid for it. A guy at my job got written up for not responding to emails on vacation, even though he had an autoresponder directing people to his boss, and told everyone ahead of time that he'd be dark for a few days. Management's excuse is that you are 24/7 unless it's otherwise defined in your empl…

That's grounds for job-search in my book.

Vacation is a form of compensation and if a company can't respect that then they aren't worth working for.

Re: The After-Work Email Quandry

#43

Post by vinceguidry » Mon, Nov 09, 2015, 5:48 PM UTC

vvanders wrote: post #42

stronglikedan wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, most companies think that they own you 24/7 as soon as they put you on salary. To them, you are getting paid for it. A guy at my job got written up for not responding to emails on vacation, even though he had an autoresponder directing people to his boss, and told everyone ahead of time that he'd be dark for a few days. Management's excuse is that you are 24/7 unless it's otherwise defined in your empl…

That's grounds for job-search in my book. Vacation is a form of compensation and if a company can't respect that then they aren't worth working for.

It's grounds for a lawsuit, as I'm fairly sure it violates labor laws. Find the relevant statutes, print them out, highlight them, and watch HR squirm.

Re: The After-Work Email Quandry

#44

Post by stronglikedan » Mon, Nov 09, 2015, 5:49 PM UTC

thecatspaw wrote: post #31

stronglikedan wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, most companies think that they own you 24/7 as soon as they put you on salary. To them, you are getting paid for it. A guy at my job got written up for not responding to emails on vacation, even though he had an autoresponder directing people to his boss, and told everyone ahead of time that he'd be dark for a few days. Management's excuse is that you are 24/7 unless it's otherwise defined in your empl…

what? If that was my job, I'd be looking for a new job faster than you can say "check your mail". In my holidays (2 weeks in summer usually) I dont respond for the whole time. No once-a-day mail checking, nothing. Never had problems so far luckily

I would look for a new job, and as a matter of fact, I did. When they found out I was looking (saw my resume on a job board), they compensated me to the point where I don't mind checking my email at odd hours. I was ready to leave, and I wasn't going to tell them or hold them hostage for an increase, so it worked out well for me, and I didn't feel like a salary blackmailer. It's a cushy job, and I've been here for over a decade, so I was relieved in a way (I don't like change).

Re: The After-Work Email Quandry

#45

Post by crpatino » Mon, Nov 09, 2015, 6:06 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #19

crpatino wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was it really needed to send that email at that time, or it was something that could have been sent first time in the morning?* And, where you already committed to work on something else next morning so the only/most-convenient time slot available was late the night before? I don't know you, so I cannot in good faith accuse you of anything. But maybe if you reflected on your ambivalence towards work-life balance, you…

Well, it was his "welcome to the company, here are a few things that will be helpful as you settle in, and here's the scoop on where to go for orientation" email, so it would ideally get to him before he arrived, and certainly before orientation started. Having two kids 3 and under doesn't lend itself very well to methodically planning out a carefully choreographed morning with just enough time to dash off an importa…

> Well, it was his "welcome to the company, here are a few things that will be helpful as you settle in, and here's the scoop on where to go for orientation" email...

You could have said welcome and provide helpful advice at any time during the first day, as long as there was someone ready to great him first time in the morning. The same person could have taken him to the place where orientation will take place. If you are big enough to have structured orientation, you are big enough to delegate the reception of new employees.

I want to say I am not judging you or your work style. I simply notice that you have shared candidly and think you may appreciate a comment with an outsider's perspective.

===

By the way, there was an asterisk in my first post. I was going to say that I am somewhat biased because my current boss prefers to write untimely emails first thing in the morning. I know he's a family guy and has to wake up pretty early to check and respond email before setting the kids up for school. I find his style very refreshing, specially in comparison with the archetypical past-midnight workaholic messages (which I confess to indulge in sometimes).

Re: The After-Work Email Quandry

#46

Post by HeyLaughingBoy » Mon, Nov 09, 2015, 6:30 PM UTC

vinceguidry wrote: post #43

vvanders wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's grounds for job-search in my book. Vacation is a form of compensation and if a company can't respect that then they aren't worth working for.

It's grounds for a lawsuit, as I'm fairly sure it violates labor laws. Find the relevant statutes, print them out, highlight them, and watch HR squirm.

Probably not. It's been a few years since I took the in-house Employment Law class, but in the US I do not believe that you must be offered vacation time. I remember that you have to have to be able to take at least one morning and one afternoon break, but that's it as far as the law goes.

Re: The After-Work Email Quandry

#47

Post by dneronique » Mon, Nov 09, 2015, 6:30 PM UTC

JohnDoe365 wrote: post #5

> Why do we find ourselves reading emails during vacation or sick days, even when we don't have to? Because we fear to get sacked?

9/10 times for me it's because I'm filtering them out. It's not a good feeling to go back to work after a few days being out to a full inbox.

The other 1/10 of the time is because I probably pushed something out last-minute before I left due to some deadline, and I want to make sure my coworkers have their questions answered. I don't necessarily look at it as a fear of being fired, more so as someone who has been on the opposite end of that scenario and it's frustrating. If spending 30 minutes answering an email from a coworker on my vacation prevents a day's worth of frustration on their end, yeah, I'll take one for the team.

Re: The After-Work Email Quandry

#48

Post by supercanuck » Mon, Nov 09, 2015, 6:32 PM UTC

Afton wrote: post #36

enobrev wrote: post #28

I've been working remotely for the past fifteen years, five of the most recent being a full-time employee for a large company. Because of this I've grown very accustomed to sending emails that start with "Don't read this until morning". Eventually my coworkers learn that they're going to get late-night emails from me, and that I don't expect an immediate reply - nor should they. After all, email is meant to be asynch…

Outlook 'delay delivery' option (or whatever your email client supports) is an even better way. If you don't intend someone to read and act on it until morning, you can enforce that trivially!

I work from home sometimes, and its a baseline assumption that my emails are being read by my employer. Therefore, his email serves two purposes, 1. it communicates to any line manager that he is in fact working, and 2. Letting his Coworkers know that he's expecting them to work odd hours like himself.

Re: The After-Work Email Quandry

#49

Post by Scarblac » Mon, Nov 09, 2015, 7:13 PM UTC

thecatspaw wrote: post #26

jwmoz wrote: post #22

Come 17:30 work ceases to exist to me and my normal life takes over. I work to live, not vice versa. It saddens me this isn't the way for most.

I dont know why people feel the need to check their emails after work. I feel the same way you do. It makes no sense to me to do something for work without getting paid for it

Mostly because I also do personal stuff during work hours.

Re: The After-Work Email Quandry

#50

Post by fps » Mon, Nov 09, 2015, 8:30 PM UTC

supercanuck wrote: post #48

Afton wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outlook 'delay delivery' option (or whatever your email client supports) is an even better way. If you don't intend someone to read and act on it until morning, you can enforce that trivially!

I work from home sometimes, and its a baseline assumption that my emails are being read by my employer. Therefore, his email serves two purposes, 1. it communicates to any line manager that he is in fact working, and 2. Letting his Coworkers know that he's expecting them to work odd hours like himself.

1) I've worked IT or IT/operations at a handful of small to large companies over the past 15 years where I've been directly in control of email and any "snooping" requests needed to go through me. I can count on one hand the number of times a manager has asked to read their employee's email. It's either been due to some HR related issue (harassment, misuse of resources, etc.) or because the employee was unreachable and some critical info had been sitting in their inbox. Employers snooping on email in a business environment is super rare.

2) My experience managing and being managed has led me to believe that most managers want their employees to work less, and most people believe that their manager wants them to work crazy hours. Frequently these people are the same people. eg. a middle manager wants his employees to go home and not work after hours, but they assume that their manager expects them to work from home between 7 and 11 PM every night. the GP of your comment even said this - he tells his employees to not work odd hours, but he does so anyway.