I've heard the reasoning in this article before, and it's deeply flawed. It's true that we in the West have the right to offend, but being a troll doesn't make you a righteous defender of freedom. . Those cartoons weren't some type of brilliant artwork, they were simple trolling. While I'll stand up for someone's right to be a troll, they certainly shouldn't expect my support and respect. Instead, that is reserved fo…
If we aren't willing to stand up for unpleasant and offensive things then we aren't willing to stand up for freedom of speech at all. And frankly, having seen the cartoons, anyone who thinks the cartoonists deserve to either die or face attempts on their lives is a nutcase who we should be willing to stand up to.
The West Is Choked by Fear
41–50 of 68 posts
Re: The West Is Choked by Fear
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
Danish people tend to be confrontational. At least that's the impression I got when I lived there. Such a cartoon could only come from Denmark. It's offensive and distasteful, and the author should have kept in mind that insulting 1 billion people is a bad idea. His mistake. However, what I do know is that Westerners in Muslim countries tend to play by the local rules (I am not talking of the U.S. Military in Iraq).…
What's wrong with them preaching that their values are better? As long as they are not trying to coerce you to live the way they do, why do you care? Let them preach all they want, and just ignore them. I frankly believe here in the U.S. we do a better job of assimilating people because we do not subscribe to "adapt to our customs, or move back to where you came from." We demand the freedom to believe whatever we wan…
Suppose that you invite people to your house. Rules of etiquette say that the guests should not tell you how to live your life. Nobody likes to be told what to do, nor how to live. Except for Muslims in the Balkans, most Muslims in Europe are guests. Guests should keep their mouths shut until asked for their opinion.
The Muslims I know who have adapted really well to Europe are the ones who adopt the attitude: these people do not know what Islam is, they think Islam is suicide bombers... so, as an ambassador of my religion, I will tell them what Islam is, without trying to force my belief system on them, so that they get a clearer picture of the enormous complexity and diversity of the Islamic world. By contrast, the morons who claim that it's OK to kill a cartoonist, and who claim that Muslims are victims, are the ones who give a bad image of Islam.
"I frankly believe here in the U.S. we do a better job of assimilating people because we do not subscribe to "adapt to our customs, or move back to where you came from." We demand the freedom to believe whatever we want, as long as we grant others the same privilege."
I live in the U.S. now and I disagree. The U.S. is a country of immigrants, and one of the unwritten requirements to live in the American society is that you conform to the norm. You don't need to lose your culture, but you need to mellow it down in your public life. Sorry, but the U.S. being as tolerant as you claim is a nice dream, imho.
"Ironically, even with the U.S. wars in Muslim countries still ongoing, I still believe that Muslims are better integrated into U.S. society than they are in Europe."
I agree, but not for the reasons you gave. Europe has millenia of history. In Europe, nationality and ethnicity are too deeply connected. Though I am from Western Europe and lived in Denmark, I don't think I would ever feel Danish even if I lived there for 50 years. Being a U.S. citizen is much more cultural than ethnical. The U.S. is more welcoming to all immigrants because of this, not only to Muslims, but to everyone. And it has more to do with the ethnical aspect than with freedom of worship. Do you really think that Muslims in Europe have no freedom of worship?
Re: The West Is Choked by Fear
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
"I find the [it] mildly disturbing [...] in that it proposes to be the absolute truth that admits no questioning." I have a suggestion for you: Head over to Germany and question the "absolute truth" of holocaust: numbers, methods, facts, etc. Lets see how long your "freedom of speech" is respected. (Will post your arrest and incarceration news here on HN!)
I'm not trying to be nasty here but really equating denial of the holocaust (an event that actually happened and we have extensive proof and documentation of) with religious beliefs (which have no evidence and need to be taken on faith) is somewhat offensive.
I am not aware of rigorous studies that address the scientific and engineering aspects of the taboo subject of holocaust. Rough back of napkin calculations of the numbers involved suggest a very substantial killing machine; killing factories, in fact. And as with any other matter that is hammered into my head from every corner, I personally like to gain a certain level of comfort regarding its veracity.
Since you seem to be aware of the "extensive proof and documentation" regarding this subject, I would be very grateful to see citations in literature so I can study them.
(This is quite helpful since I can not raise this "scientific" topic in polite society without suffering adverse social and possibly economic consequences)
The subjects that perplex me the most are:
1 - logistics: A handful of sites were used to kill people and dispose of bodies. (4 years of 12 hour days non-stop seems to indicate something around 30 people per hour non-stop.) How long does it take to reduce a human body to ashes? How much fuel does it take to do this? What sort of maintenance do these machines require? (I suppose the local crematorium can provide some factual numbers in this regard.)
2 - methodology: What chemicals were used to kill. How fast acting are these chemicals? How can these chemicals be delivered? How dangerous are they to the operators of the killing factory? What effects do they have on the factory infrastructure (corrosion, discoloration, etc.)?
3 - disposal: Assuming .2 cubic feet of ash per human body (rough guess), there should be somewhere near 1,000,000 cubic feet of human ashes around the slaughterhouses. Have they been found?
From what I understand, every critical scientific effort to date to investigate the above has had serious consequences for their investigators, including incarceration for some. (No doubt I will get my virtual share of the same as well.) In contrast, I am certain that beyond ridicule, the consequences of questioning the existence of Electron, and DNA are fairly minimal.
Re: The West Is Choked by Fear
#44Of course, this is typical behaviour of many of the deeply religious. Murder in the name of religion is nothing new. We're seeing it more from the Muslims than the Christians in this century but the end result is still death in the name of religion.
This isn't about freedom of speech. It's about insecure people who need to cling to fairy tales in order to get through life. It's pathetic. I pity them and their unhealthy need to believe in a fairy tale epilogue to their lives.
Re: The West Is Choked by Fear
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Fuck freedom of speech, it's not what this is about." It's exactly what this is about. As an almost Atheist (lacking the needed faith to really be one) I find the Quram mildly disturbing (as I do with other sacred texts, the Bible included) in that it proposes to be the absolute truth that admits no questioning. I respect, however, your right to your faith. You may believe in whatever you like, and I will defend you…
"I find the [it] mildly disturbing [...] in that it proposes to be the absolute truth that admits no questioning." I have a suggestion for you: Head over to Germany and question the "absolute truth" of holocaust: numbers, methods, facts, etc. Lets see how long your "freedom of speech" is respected. (Will post your arrest and incarceration news here on HN!)
Re: The West Is Choked by Fear
#46I am a Muslim. I created a new account, as some will hold that against me. This is just picking on someone who is too weak, uneducated and inarticulate to be able to defend themselves. Fuck freedom of speech, it's not what this is about. You don't have, and never had, the right to slander someone in order to pick a fight. If I went to a bar, found the biggest and dumbest asshole in there and called his mother a filth…
They are also predominantly impoverished, uneducated and downtrodden, not to mention constantly in the crosshairs, perhaps things are connected? Plenty of other populations are "impoverished, uneducated and downtrodden" but don't bully and blackmail the rest of the world into being sensitive to their superstitions. This only ever became an issue through the opportunism of theocratic leaders who routinely promote outr…
This is the killer argument for the "critics of Islam" side. After all, lots of Buddhists, Hindus, Christians, Native Americans etc are dirt poor, and many of them live under very oppressive regimes. They don't go around blowing up airliners or flying planes into buildings and claiming sanction from their religions. Colonialism isn't enough of an answer either. Many countries have come out of colonialism without a pan-generational rage against the west. Hindu or Buddhist immigrants to the United States don't rage against "immoral" culture and kill innocents to prove their cultural superiority.
So prima facie there does seem to be something screwy about Islam that encourages such behavior (but I won't explore this any further on this post).
This doesn't say anything about individual muslims though. Once can claim communism is a terrible way to structure a society and still believe that individual communists can be decent people. This is the subtlety both sides (Islam "bashers" and apologists) lose sight of. The bashers want all muslims to be demonized and deported and so on, while the pro Islam folks want everyone else to tread softly around Islam, refrain from criticizing its "holy" books and "prophet" and treat it with "respect". Both arguments are obnoxious.
Re: The West Is Choked by Fear
#47I've heard the reasoning in this article before, and it's deeply flawed. It's true that we in the West have the right to offend, but being a troll doesn't make you a righteous defender of freedom. . Those cartoons weren't some type of brilliant artwork, they were simple trolling. While I'll stand up for someone's right to be a troll, they certainly shouldn't expect my support and respect. Instead, that is reserved fo…
Do you like that now punk?
Thought not.
You see, it stops mattering that they're puerile and reprehensible prats the moment you start to threaten physical violence.
By saying: "I will make you stop saying that even if I have to use force" you have guaranteed two outcomes:
1) They will _definitely_ not stop saying the thing which is making you so mad.
2) Any responsible person hearing this would start dialing 911 before you do something you will regret for the rest of your life.
The point of the original article was not to defend the trolls but rather to point out the fact that civil society is becoming increasingly tolerant of violent threats when they are made by members of fundamentalist religious movements.Given that these threats, in recent years, are all to often starting to turn to action it becomes quite important to ask how much of this behavior we can tolerate before our society too ceases to be civil?
Re: The West Is Choked by Fear
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
"I find the [it] mildly disturbing [...] in that it proposes to be the absolute truth that admits no questioning." I have a suggestion for you: Head over to Germany and question the "absolute truth" of holocaust: numbers, methods, facts, etc. Lets see how long your "freedom of speech" is respected. (Will post your arrest and incarceration news here on HN!)
The difference is that the Holocaust is something that really happened, with eyewitnesses and documents to prove it. The stuff in the Bible or the Koran is a matter of faith, and can't be proven by the scientific method. Personally, I think that the Bible and the Koran are a bunch of fairy tales written a long time ago to frighten people into doing things that will keep them from going to hell.
I've noticed that people of other faiths (Christians, Hindus, Jews) tend to take their holy books a little bit more allegorically.
Personally, I believe that this unyielding approach to the Koran is a major cause in Islam's adoption into a modern day society.
Re: The West Is Choked by Fear
#49Earlier quoted context omitted.
Stop modding theotherside down. This discussion is important.
Agreed. Comments should be voted according to how much they add to the discussion, not by whether you agree with the author's opinion.
Granted ... this particular comment was pretty much on topic, and contains a very popular point-of-view in many circles ... so personally I haven't down-voted "theotherside", preferring to give him a reply instead.
Re: The West Is Choked by Fear
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not trying to be nasty here but really equating denial of the holocaust (an event that actually happened and we have extensive proof and documentation of) with religious beliefs (which have no evidence and need to be taken on faith) is somewhat offensive.
My intent was not to offend you or other readers. Further I do not find the notion of mass extermination of humans acceptable. However the comment I replied to posited the (imo false) notion that only religious beliefs are uniquely putting forward "absolute truths" and that the adherents of these beliefs are unique in resisting fact based analysis of their beliefs. I am not aware of rigorous studies that address the…
Humans have a lot of fat. I suppose it is possible to sustain combustion using human fat as fuel alone. The time it takes depend on temperature, amount of fuel and availability of oxygen.
"What chemicals were used to kill"
AFAIK, Carbon Monoxide was the preferred means. It poses no great risk to the operators if properly restricted and it quickly dissipates in the environment. It's also easy to generate from internal combustion engines and it was used in mobile gas chambers mounted in trucks where the exhaust was directed to a compartment where the prisoners were killed while being transported.
As for ash disposal, not all victims were cremated. There were many mass graves identified.
"every critical scientific effort to date to investigate the above has had serious consequences for their investigators"
I know of no critical scientific effort to investigate the Holocaust. Can anyone seriously believe the surviving witnesses are victims of a collective hallucination or part of a conspiracy to hide some "truth"? Can anyone discredit the exhaustive records kept about the "productivity" of the extermination fields?
Quite frankly, when I decided to answer your questions I had no idea this trip to one of the darkest moments of history would have the effect it had on me. It saddens me my species is capable of such a cold, directed, rational and efficient genocide. The possibility it may happen again frightens me deeply.
We should never forget the terrible atrocities we are capable of doing. This memory may be the only thing that prevents us from doing it again.