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Girl, Bye

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Re: Girl, Bye

#41

Post by dragonwriter »

lukev wrote: post #28
zzalpha wrote: post #17

There's a LOT of reading between the lines going on, here. Going from Matt doesn’t feel comfortable around you. He’s worried that you either don’t like him for some reason, or you’re mad at him. He thinks maybe you’re upset about his recent promotion, because it means you’ll have to do more work to cover for his newfound absence on the team to What we’re really saying here is that your unreconcilable feelings toward…

So, this is subtle, because everything you say is good advice and can't really be argued against. Calm down, don't overreact, give the benefit of the doubt, be constructive, etc, etc. These are basic, undeniable principles of good human interaction. But. But . Consider an alternative hypothesis; that the author really did experience a bit of nasty, petty sexism. In that case, responses like yours at best sweep the pr…

> But. But. Consider an alternative hypothesis; that the author really did experience a bit of nasty, petty sexism.

Actually, I'd say GPs advice is the right course of action, in part precisely because real sexism might be involved. In addition to providing a productive way forward if that is not the case, it also avoids an overreaction which provides an excuse for (and thus masks the sexism of) any adverse action in the future.

It doesn't sweep anything under the rug, in fact, it is the best approach for bringing what is actually happening out in the open (rather than escalating the one clear, undebatable problem in the situation under discussion, which is that people are acting based on unsubstantiated assumptions about others motivations.)

Re: Girl, Bye

#42

Post by [deleted] »

zzalpha wrote: post #34
lukev wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there is a systemic problem, then yes, loud, fervent and frequent verbal raging from all quarters is an appropriate response. "Keep your head down" has never been a constructive strategy for minority groups targeted by discrimination. Look, I don't know what the truth is here. To some extent I don't care. But I do know that there is a pervasive problem with sexism in tech, and I know that every time you or I publi…

"Keep your head down" has never been a constructive strategy for minority groups targeted by discrimination. Where did I say she should do that? I said she should be mature and maintain the moral high ground. I didn't say she should shut up. Perhaps you're reading more into my words than is actually there? If you publicly undermine the reliability or emotional state of the reporter, you are actively re-affirming the…

[deleted]

Re: Girl, Bye

#43

Post by lukev »

zzalpha wrote: post #34
lukev wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there is a systemic problem, then yes, loud, fervent and frequent verbal raging from all quarters is an appropriate response. "Keep your head down" has never been a constructive strategy for minority groups targeted by discrimination. Look, I don't know what the truth is here. To some extent I don't care. But I do know that there is a pervasive problem with sexism in tech, and I know that every time you or I publi…

"Keep your head down" has never been a constructive strategy for minority groups targeted by discrimination. Where did I say she should do that? I said she should be mature and maintain the moral high ground. I didn't say she should shut up. Perhaps you're reading more into my words than is actually there? If you publicly undermine the reliability or emotional state of the reporter, you are actively re-affirming the…

You keep re-framing this in terms of "a workplace confrontation," yet your only engagement with this situation, at all, is an eyewitness account claiming it was problematic.

Negating and ignoring the subjective experience of women is very root of the problem in question. And that's exactly what you're doing!

Also, white males quoting MLK at minorities to get them to behave is so cliche, it's actually a pretty reliable signal of bad faith. I would advise you to avoid it in the future.

Re: Girl, Bye

#44

Post by zzalpha »

lukev wrote: post #43
zzalpha wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Keep your head down" has never been a constructive strategy for minority groups targeted by discrimination. Where did I say she should do that? I said she should be mature and maintain the moral high ground. I didn't say she should shut up. Perhaps you're reading more into my words than is actually there? If you publicly undermine the reliability or emotional state of the reporter, you are actively re-affirming the…

You keep re-framing this in terms of "a workplace confrontation," yet your only engagement with this situation, at all , is an eyewitness account claiming it was problematic. Negating and ignoring the subjective experience of women is very root of the problem in question. And that's exactly what you're doing! Also, white males quoting MLK at minorities to get them to behave is so cliche, it's actually a pretty reliab…

Negating and ignoring the subjective experience of women is very root of the problem in question.

You do realize you can criticize someone of being a bad actor without aiding and abetting sexism.

Can't you?

Or would you have me believe that criticizing, say, the Black Panthers or the IRA for their actions is basically racist, too?

Also, white males quoting MLK at minorities to get them to behave is so cliche, it's actually a pretty reliable signal of bad faith.

And not learning anything from illuminating, historical analogies, and the wisdom of luminaries from those struggles, is evidence of willful ignorance.

The fact that you assume I'm a "white male", and therefore that my quoting a black man is "cliche" is also borderline racist... Would it have been better if I quoted Ghandi? Jesus? Which leaders espousing views of peace, justice, and understanding in the face of adversity would you prefer I'd have quoted, given your assumptions about my gender and ethnicity?

Re: Girl, Bye

#45

Post by exstudent2 »

Mz wrote: post #39
exstudent2 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm commenting on this post because her accusations were brash and unfounded (based on her own statements) and I think bashing your current employer on Tumblr is unprofessional. I don't see how it relates to HN other than as a chance to talk about HR issues. I actually think the company in question handled this really well. It will be interesting to see what they do next though, I would honestly have troubles with th…

I see a lot wrong with what you are saying. But I don't see a lot of value in arguing it. If I argue with men here about sexism, I get told that I am "combative" and therefore I am at fault for whatever problems I feel exist (that I experience firsthand). I have flagged this piece. I dislike this entire conversation. And when I submit things that do propose other points of view and are trying to find real solutions,…

I see a lot wrong with what you're saying too :)

I do agree with some of your points though. Focusing on (and talking to) women who are succeeding in tech would be much more productive than hostile, aggressive or "ironic" feminism. That would include this piece. I don't know how an author can talk about rapey bros then complain that someone uses the word "chicks". If anything her ad hominem is much worse.

I liked this from your post:

> We go looking for an obstacle to break through and fail to find it. We show up equipped with tools to destroy a barricade only to find there is no barricade and the people we are facing feel threatened by and unwelcoming of us because we are weirdly armed to the teeth for a battle that should not happen, and if it does happen, it harms the cause of women rather than helping women.

I would argue that this is what lukev is doing in this thread and like you say, it's not winning any converts.

I think the only thing I really disagree with in your stance is that you greatly over estimate the support system available to men. There's a reason women now outnumber men in higher education. While the stories of master/apprentice, captain/crew are nice, the reality is most men are extremely isolated and left to fend for themselves. Just like women.

Re: Girl, Bye

#46

Post by Mz »

exstudent2 wrote: post #45
Mz wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see a lot wrong with what you are saying. But I don't see a lot of value in arguing it. If I argue with men here about sexism, I get told that I am "combative" and therefore I am at fault for whatever problems I feel exist (that I experience firsthand). I have flagged this piece. I dislike this entire conversation. And when I submit things that do propose other points of view and are trying to find real solutions,…

I see a lot wrong with what you're saying too :) I do agree with some of your points though. Focusing on (and talking to) women who are succeeding in tech would be much more productive than hostile, aggressive or "ironic" feminism. That would include this piece. I don't know how an author can talk about rapey bros then complain that someone uses the word "chicks". If anything her ad hominem is much worse. I liked thi…

the reality is most men are extremely isolated and left to fend for themselves. Just like women.

I think there are important differences. I think I just have a lot more work to do to adequately convey them.

I notice it (my piece) still doesn't have more upvotes. So presumably you did not upvote it. Nor did you comment there. You commented on it here. I will suggest that keeps the focus on a piece you think is doing it wrong and does nothing to redirect focus to a piece that is at least trying to look for real answers.

Anyway, I have work to do.

Thank you for the comment. Take care.

Re: Girl, Bye

#47

Post by ciconia »

hypnos1 wrote: post #9

If this kind of post can be dismissed as cliche, its an indication of a problem in the industry and not with the writer. The commenters that preceded me would do well to remember her article is a venting on Tumblr, and not the conversation she had with her co-workers or manager. Denigrating her tumblr post for being an inappropriate work attitude misses the point.

Not just the "industry", it's modern culture in general. There's a lot of pressure being put on women from a very young age as to how they should talk, dress, and generally behave.

The fact that there are so few female programmers shows that the problem is education and culture. Take kids' books - 95% of the time it's the boy who goes on adventure, and the girl just sits there waiting to be rescued or given by her father to the male hero. Then you go to toy store and the girl toys are all about makeup and nail polish, while the boys get to actually do stuff. I really don't understand how women can take this shit, and I say this as a white male.

Re: Girl, Bye

#48

Post by exstudent2 »

Mz wrote: post #46
exstudent2 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see a lot wrong with what you're saying too :) I do agree with some of your points though. Focusing on (and talking to) women who are succeeding in tech would be much more productive than hostile, aggressive or "ironic" feminism. That would include this piece. I don't know how an author can talk about rapey bros then complain that someone uses the word "chicks". If anything her ad hominem is much worse. I liked thi…

the reality is most men are extremely isolated and left to fend for themselves. Just like women. I think there are important differences. I think I just have a lot more work to do to adequately convey them. I notice it (my piece) still doesn't have more upvotes. So presumably you did not upvote it. Nor did you comment there. You commented on it here. I will suggest that keeps the focus on a piece you think is doing i…

I thought about upvoting it since I really appreciate your honest discussion. In the end I don't agree with it enough though.

I commented here because I strongly disagree that this type of public blasting of hr issues is appropriate.

Your piece is definitely sensible and well written even if I don't agree with it.

Re: Girl, Bye

#49

Post by Mz »

exstudent2 wrote: post #48
Mz wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the reality is most men are extremely isolated and left to fend for themselves. Just like women. I think there are important differences. I think I just have a lot more work to do to adequately convey them. I notice it (my piece) still doesn't have more upvotes. So presumably you did not upvote it. Nor did you comment there. You commented on it here. I will suggest that keeps the focus on a piece you think is doing i…

I thought about upvoting it since I really appreciate your honest discussion. In the end I don't agree with it enough though. I commented here because I strongly disagree that this type of public blasting of hr issues is appropriate. Your piece is definitely sensible and well written even if I don't agree with it.

You don't have to "agree" with it to upvote it. You can upvote it to bookmark it. Items you upvote are items you can revisit. You can upvote it to say "Yes, I would like to see more of this on HN." You can upvote it in hopes of helping it get to the front page and get real discussion, instead of people continuing to discuss stuff like this all the time.

You aren't obligated to upvote it. But upvote does not denote agreement per se.

/pedantic

Re: Girl, Bye

#50

Post by devereaux »

Mz wrote: post #32

I am not upvoting this. I would like to see less of this on HN. As a woman, I sympathize with her frustration. I understand her anger. I think this could go over well in a different forum. It will not play well here. It will not help further productive discussion about a real path forward. It frustrates me that this kind of stuff gets upvoted -- often far more than more even-handed writing that looks for a real path…

Nothing else to say - you said it all. Not adding to the fire is the best thing.

If I were to nitpick, I'd say some interventions are appropriate, but only when adding context or information, and when the tone of the conversation makes them welcome.

(EDIT- spelling and clarity)

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