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What We Know About the 92M Americans Who Aren’t in the Labor Force

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Re: What We Know About the 92M Americans Who Aren’t in the Labor Force

#41
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aerospace is ageist towards the older people? That's interesting, I'd think that experience would be the most important factor in that space.

It's because that industry uses a lot of old (software) technology and older folks tend to know it best.

The grandparent (no pun intended) said he was forced into early retirement though. Shouldn't he be more valuable as he grows older?

Re: What We Know About the 92M Americans Who Aren’t in the Labor Force

#42

I have a neighbor who used to work as a landscaper. The money was decent (in SF); his specialty was masonry. Then a couple of years ago, he decided to drop out. Claimed he had MS and started getting SSDI checks of about $2K/month (I think). After he dropped out, I've seen him lift 100lb stones; frequently, he'll drive down to Arizona for fishing trips with buddies; and recently, he drove cross-country to Georgia for…

What do you expect people to do when they can't find work and don't have access to any other safety net? Is it really worse for someone to lie in order to keep food on the table and a roof over their head, than for us (as a society) to let people starve or go homeless?

The fact that the SSDI stats jumped during the financial crisis shows that people aren't applying just because they're lazy and don't want to work. They're applying because the work isn't there, otherwise the numbers would have already been just as high before the crisis.

You also have to consider that a lot of these people may be legitimately "too disabled to work" during a job shortage but be fine when there is more demand for workers. When employers are desperate for workers, they're willing to make more accommodations than they would when there are hundreds of applicants per opening. MS is a great example of this because its symptoms are so variable from day to day. My mom has had MS since before I was born and she's been able to find part-time work when the economy is doing good because some employers are willing to accept that she needs to work shorter shifts, take longer breaks and will call in sick more often. During harder times she's outcompeted by applicants who don't have these issues. It's very possible your neighbor is only capable of lifting 100lb stones 2 or 3 days of the week. Hard to find stable work that way.

Re: What We Know About the 92M Americans Who Aren’t in the Labor Force

#43

I have a neighbor who used to work as a landscaper. The money was decent (in SF); his specialty was masonry. Then a couple of years ago, he decided to drop out. Claimed he had MS and started getting SSDI checks of about $2K/month (I think). After he dropped out, I've seen him lift 100lb stones; frequently, he'll drive down to Arizona for fishing trips with buddies; and recently, he drove cross-country to Georgia for…

This is infuriating. My mother is 58. Her lower spinal column was collapsed, and she's had it reconstructed using titanium plates and screws during a 6 hour surgery. She has been denied for disability by the Social Security Administration twice, and currently has to wait ~500 days for her next appeal ( https://www.ssa.gov/appeals/DataSets/01_NetStat_Report.html ) in front of an panel of judges (this backlog is caused…

Same here -- my GF has Fibromyalgia. She was working up till a couple years ago, and now can't drive due to the pain meds. After 3 rejections, she's finally getting a court date at the end of the year.

From what I gather, since there has been a larger number of people filing for disability, they are automatically rejecting applicants several times hoping that they will get a job (if they really don't need the disability). Then, if you make it to the court date, that itself is evidence that you are disabled enough.

Now I don't agree with this, but apparently this is the way they are running the program now.

Re: What We Know About the 92M Americans Who Aren’t in the Labor Force

#44

I have a neighbor who used to work as a landscaper. The money was decent (in SF); his specialty was masonry. Then a couple of years ago, he decided to drop out. Claimed he had MS and started getting SSDI checks of about $2K/month (I think). After he dropped out, I've seen him lift 100lb stones; frequently, he'll drive down to Arizona for fishing trips with buddies; and recently, he drove cross-country to Georgia for…

This is infuriating. My mother is 58. Her lower spinal column was collapsed, and she's had it reconstructed using titanium plates and screws during a 6 hour surgery. She has been denied for disability by the Social Security Administration twice, and currently has to wait ~500 days for her next appeal ( https://www.ssa.gov/appeals/DataSets/01_NetStat_Report.html ) in front of an panel of judges (this backlog is caused…

He doesn't know whether his neighbor needs disability or not, he's just guessing. MS symptoms are really variable. The fact that he has a few good days doesn't mean he can hold down a steady job.

Re: What We Know About the 92M Americans Who Aren’t in the Labor Force

#45
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is infuriating. My mother is 58. Her lower spinal column was collapsed, and she's had it reconstructed using titanium plates and screws during a 6 hour surgery. She has been denied for disability by the Social Security Administration twice, and currently has to wait ~500 days for her next appeal ( https://www.ssa.gov/appeals/DataSets/01_NetStat_Report.html ) in front of an panel of judges (this backlog is caused…

Same here -- my GF has Fibromyalgia. She was working up till a couple years ago, and now can't drive due to the pain meds. After 3 rejections, she's finally getting a court date at the end of the year. From what I gather, since there has been a larger number of people filing for disability, they are automatically rejecting applicants several times hoping that they will get a job (if they really don't need the disabil…

> From what I gather, since there has been a larger number of people filing for disability, they are automatically rejecting applicants several times hoping that they will get a job (if they really don't need the disability). Then, if you make it to the court date, that itself is evidence that you are disabled enough.

This disgusts me on a level I can't even describe. My mother is lucky: I live a modest life, combined with a tech worker salary, means I can support her without any impact to either of us. Without my job though, she would be homeless.

Re: What We Know About the 92M Americans Who Aren’t in the Labor Force

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aerospace is ageist towards the older people? That's interesting, I'd think that experience would be the most important factor in that space.

Once you top out the salary range, and are close to 55 (the earliest age for reduced retirement benefits) they look for ways to shed you. It happened to me, and many other colleagues. I have worked on a lot of great projects such as B2 Bomber, Space Shuttle, UAV Global Hawk and many satellite programs. That does not matter; once you hit the age/wage criteria, you better have great connections or you could easily see…

That's nuts. You're more proficient and efficient with that experience, which should compensate for the wage difference between you and a less experienced colleague.

Re: What We Know About the 92M Americans Who Aren’t in the Labor Force

#47

I have a neighbor who used to work as a landscaper. The money was decent (in SF); his specialty was masonry. Then a couple of years ago, he decided to drop out. Claimed he had MS and started getting SSDI checks of about $2K/month (I think). After he dropped out, I've seen him lift 100lb stones; frequently, he'll drive down to Arizona for fishing trips with buddies; and recently, he drove cross-country to Georgia for…

the most common disability out there is obesity, at least from appearances sake. More than one coworker has gone out for this which is surprising to me because until they did you would never have expected it. Yeah they were large but to get out on disability and stay there? Really?

Of course patient survey's don't help this at all. I do know my doctor will rarely if ever raise the notion that a patient's weight is the cause of their problems, from bad back, weak joints, pain in walking, or diabetes. Why? Surveys. You get whacked more than a few times and suddenly its not worth the frustration. Sadly there are movements that are pushing for acceptance. I wonder how many other shake their head in annoyance at all the obese who have stickers and park up front at the store? Its like ready content for people of wal mart.

As for the SSDI, there are so many cases of fraud and its not uncommon to read about some disability mill getting caught and having to pay out. However you won't see many of those receiving their SSDI losing it. Its even worse when just you can make believe a mental disability and get it. There was that famous case from 2011 where a guy was claiming disability, wearing diapers, having nurses attend, and more.

Re: What We Know About the 92M Americans Who Aren’t in the Labor Force

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is infuriating. My mother is 58. Her lower spinal column was collapsed, and she's had it reconstructed using titanium plates and screws during a 6 hour surgery. She has been denied for disability by the Social Security Administration twice, and currently has to wait ~500 days for her next appeal ( https://www.ssa.gov/appeals/DataSets/01_NetStat_Report.html ) in front of an panel of judges (this backlog is caused…

He doesn't know whether his neighbor needs disability or not, he's just guessing. MS symptoms are really variable. The fact that he has a few good days doesn't mean he can hold down a steady job.

I can appreciate that.

Re: What We Know About the 92M Americans Who Aren’t in the Labor Force

#49

I have a neighbor who used to work as a landscaper. The money was decent (in SF); his specialty was masonry. Then a couple of years ago, he decided to drop out. Claimed he had MS and started getting SSDI checks of about $2K/month (I think). After he dropped out, I've seen him lift 100lb stones; frequently, he'll drive down to Arizona for fishing trips with buddies; and recently, he drove cross-country to Georgia for…

This has been extensvely studied, and it has been found that many people realized they could get much more money in the long term by claiming disability instead of simply claiming various unemployment benefits.[1] The number of people on the disability rolls went up substantially during the great recession when the number of unemployed or marginally employed people increased drastically, and many of them decided to claim disability rather than trying to go out and look for new jobs.

What is particularly distressing about this phenomenon is that the people on disability are discouraged from looking from insecure jobs, because disability benefits are a guaranteed long term income stream which is forfeit in perpetuity upon employment. It is clear that many of the people receiving these government benefits understand the system quite well, as a substantial portion of them are working off the books, to get extra income while avoiding loss of long term benefits.

[1] http://economics.mit.edu/files/7388

Re: What We Know About the 92M Americans Who Aren’t in the Labor Force

#50

I have a neighbor who used to work as a landscaper. The money was decent (in SF); his specialty was masonry. Then a couple of years ago, he decided to drop out. Claimed he had MS and started getting SSDI checks of about $2K/month (I think). After he dropped out, I've seen him lift 100lb stones; frequently, he'll drive down to Arizona for fishing trips with buddies; and recently, he drove cross-country to Georgia for…

You're taking anecdata from anecdata.

"I know one guy who is potentially abusing disability. I have seen him on ones of occasions do something that makes me think he should be working."

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