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Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

blog.jonathanoliver.com

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Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

#41

Post by RussianCow »

digler999 wrote: post #34
V-2 wrote: post #20

Some of this criticism was outdated already, or has gone out of date since. WebForms (with their underlying concept of abstracting away how web really works) were already in decline two years ago, replaced by MVC. As a former C# developer, turned Android developer, of course I have to admit there is some walled garden mentality among .NET devs, but I think they get stigmatized for that way more than average. If a Rub…

> often directed at developers themselves Who else should it be directed at ? the janitor ? If you have a problem with something, direct it toward its creator.

I think the OP meant it's (irrationally) directed at the developers who use .NET, not the developers of .NET.

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

#42

Post by melling »

aggieben wrote: post #22
V-2 wrote: post #20

Some of this criticism was outdated already, or has gone out of date since. WebForms (with their underlying concept of abstracting away how web really works) were already in decline two years ago, replaced by MVC. As a former C# developer, turned Android developer, of course I have to admit there is some walled garden mentality among .NET devs, but I think they get stigmatized for that way more than average. If a Rub…

> they get stigmatized for that way more than average. If a Rubyist never sticks nose outside their beloved technology stack, noone makes such a big deal out of it. Yes, exactly right. > to vitriolic anti-M$ hater mentality Right on - this isn't what OP was demonstrating, I think, but general reactions to Microsoft technologies are pretty bizarre. Use it or don't, but I don't get all the hate.

At one point, not so not so very long ago, Microsoft had 96% desktop market share. I believe that has dropped to 89%, which is still a monopoly. The Internet made that less important but there was a time when Internet Explorer was all developers cared about. If you mentioned Mozilla, they just laughed. Fortunately, Google released Chrome and after several years developers fell in love with it. Unfortunately, IE still has half the browser market because it ships default on that 89% desktop monopoly. But we have made great progress. Microsoft has open sourced .Net but it doesn't really work well on other platforms. Performance lags, for example. F#, what I'd love to use, isn't production ready on Mac or Linux.

Anyway, Microsoft has always been relevant and dangerous. Now that they are starting to release cool products they could definitely be a problem. Apple self-regulates because their products are expensive. Microsoft on the other hand, was never afraid of taking it all.

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

#43

Post by UK-AL »

camkego wrote: post #6

Author states "Using the Disruptor (a lock-free ring buffer on the JVM), you can easily process 20M+ events per second. On .NET using ordained "best practices" anything more than a dozen transactions per second is considered decent-to-good performance and at that point, you just need bigger/better/more hardware." WTF? This is inane.

The comparison is silly.

Disrupter is a completely different way of working compared to the standard java way.

If you use standard Java style and compare that .net style then it would be the same.

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

#44

Post by vinceguidry »

V-2 wrote: post #20

Some of this criticism was outdated already, or has gone out of date since. WebForms (with their underlying concept of abstracting away how web really works) were already in decline two years ago, replaced by MVC. As a former C# developer, turned Android developer, of course I have to admit there is some walled garden mentality among .NET devs, but I think they get stigmatized for that way more than average. If a Rub…

> If a Rubyist never sticks nose outside their beloved technology stack, noone makes such a big deal out of it.

To be fair, Rails is amazing, the most cutting-edge web framework out there, and it's settling into adulthood nicely. The Ruby ecosystem is so perfectly suited to web development that one hardly needs to go elsewhere to get what one needs. Whatever you could need is right at hand.

The .NET dev sitting across from me doesn't even use legit source control. He has his own hacked-together solution for his own projects, but most of what he does, he claims source control just doesn't work.

I think the main problem is that .NET tries to be all things to all devs, and so ends up solving no problems really well. People really seem to go gaga over C#, and to be sure the language isn't terrible like C/C++/Java, but it's pretty damn far from being spectacular. Ruby isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread either, but one can be enormously productive with it.

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

#45

Post by parasubvert »

aggieben wrote: post #22
V-2 wrote: post #20

Some of this criticism was outdated already, or has gone out of date since. WebForms (with their underlying concept of abstracting away how web really works) were already in decline two years ago, replaced by MVC. As a former C# developer, turned Android developer, of course I have to admit there is some walled garden mentality among .NET devs, but I think they get stigmatized for that way more than average. If a Rub…

> they get stigmatized for that way more than average. If a Rubyist never sticks nose outside their beloved technology stack, noone makes such a big deal out of it. Yes, exactly right. > to vitriolic anti-M$ hater mentality Right on - this isn't what OP was demonstrating, I think, but general reactions to Microsoft technologies are pretty bizarre. Use it or don't, but I don't get all the hate.

"Use it or don't, but I don't get all the hate."

At this point, MS hate is rather pointless, but the closest analogue is today's Apple hate (and to a lesser extent, Oracle/Java hate, and today's small but growing Amazon cloud hate).

Microsoft was the king of the hill in the 90's through early 2000's, squashed small companies everywhere when they released competing products, threatening to sue IT shops (by NDA, no less!) that used Linux for questionable patent infringement, and the economics of the software biz led to many fine platforms (OS/2, Mac System 7+) getting second-class citizen status.

Today, the equivalent is Apple squashing certain web standards by ignoring them, Amazon squashing competition by building a competing version on AWS, large employers only wanting Java or .NET experience, while Oracle successfully sues Google over Java copyrights, etc. These are all manifestations of the authoritarian tech paradigms and the herd mentality which enables them, both of which many people really dislike. It unfortunately devolves into identity politics quickly ("I can't believe you use that platform" / "I can't believe you program in that language") instead of objectively looking at the good/bad sides of the dominant player.

On the other hand, riding the bandwagon side can reap many benefits.

These days with mobile and cloud dominance it seems there is enough of a customer base for a few solid ecosystems rather than a single one.

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

#46

Post by organsnyder »

melling wrote: post #42
aggieben wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they get stigmatized for that way more than average. If a Rubyist never sticks nose outside their beloved technology stack, noone makes such a big deal out of it. Yes, exactly right. > to vitriolic anti-M$ hater mentality Right on - this isn't what OP was demonstrating, I think, but general reactions to Microsoft technologies are pretty bizarre. Use it or don't, but I don't get all the hate.

At one point, not so not so very long ago, Microsoft had 96% desktop market share. I believe that has dropped to 89%, which is still a monopoly. The Internet made that less important but there was a time when Internet Explorer was all developers cared about. If you mentioned Mozilla, they just laughed. Fortunately, Google released Chrome and after several years developers fell in love with it. Unfortunately, IE still…

You're severely downplaying the importance of Firefox. It had a 30% market share before Chrome even existed.

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

#47

Post by edgyswingset »

UK-AL wrote: post #39
platz wrote: post #21

Interesting that he didn't mention the core idea of this piece that got a fair amount of attention: http://www.aaronstannard.com/the-profound-weakness-of-the-ne... Namely, hat .NET developers don't really solve any hard problems

Ironically I think there a lot of distributed platforms for .net. NServiceBus, MassTransit. Akka.net, Orleans, etc

The author who write that blog post is actually one of the co-founders of Akka.NET, which was created before Orleans was out.

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

#48

Post by aggieben »

digler999 wrote: post #36
aggieben wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they get stigmatized for that way more than average. If a Rubyist never sticks nose outside their beloved technology stack, noone makes such a big deal out of it. Yes, exactly right. > to vitriolic anti-M$ hater mentality Right on - this isn't what OP was demonstrating, I think, but general reactions to Microsoft technologies are pretty bizarre. Use it or don't, but I don't get all the hate.

The hate comes from the iron-fist mentality MS has and had toward its users, and their lack of reliability and lack of responsibility for their part in delivering an unreliable product. Why don't you "get" that ?

Because I don't agree? What I don't "get" is why people like you assume that your opinion is completely undebateable, or that it's any more than what it is: an opinion.

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

#49

Post by [deleted] »

mcintyre1994 wrote: post #35
minionslave wrote: post #4

From the comments: "Why do people have to "leave" technologies? Why can't they just add new technologies to their arsenals without dramatic quitting blog posts? You don't see musicians who have just learned to play the guitar writing "why I'm leaving the piano" posts. Go is great; Node.js is great; some JVM languages are fine; .NET has a hell of a lot going for it too. Evaluate your options at the start of every proj…

Amusingly, in his "Why I love Go" [0] linked from that article he discusses using the right tool for the job: > Instead, this about the right tool for the job. (Could you imagine woodworkers getting into heated arguments about whether a screwdriver or hammer was better?) That would be about as insane as a woodworker writing a blog post about 'leaving the screwdriver' :) [0] http://blog.jonathanoliver.com/why-i-love-g…

[deleted]

Re: Why I Left the .NET Framework (2013)

#50

Post by UK-AL »

vinceguidry wrote: post #44
V-2 wrote: post #20

Some of this criticism was outdated already, or has gone out of date since. WebForms (with their underlying concept of abstracting away how web really works) were already in decline two years ago, replaced by MVC. As a former C# developer, turned Android developer, of course I have to admit there is some walled garden mentality among .NET devs, but I think they get stigmatized for that way more than average. If a Rub…

> If a Rubyist never sticks nose outside their beloved technology stack, noone makes such a big deal out of it. To be fair, Rails is amazing , the most cutting-edge web framework out there, and it's settling into adulthood nicely. The Ruby ecosystem is so perfectly suited to web development that one hardly needs to go elsewhere to get what one needs. Whatever you could need is right at hand. The .NET dev sitting acro…

I'm fairly sure you get beginner rails developers like that as well.

We use GIT, BDD, TDD NServiceBus. Distributed load balanced services, that you can deploy independently. Micro services would be the buzzword for it. CQRS, ServiceStack, MVC, CI, Peer Code reviews

We've never had any downtime, our code is clean, we support tons of users and don't really need lots of servers to support it.

Not everybody is the same.

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