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China’s plan to give every citizen a social credit score

newscientist.com

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Re: China’s plan to give every citizen a social credit score

#41

Post by amyjess »

im3w1l wrote: post #24
TeMPOraL wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some areas, it would be so much better if countries were really ruled like sim games. You need more energy for growth and global warming threatens your future? You start building goddamn nuclear power plants. No political bickering, no clueless citizens protesting everything at random because of fear or propaganda.

Enlightened despotism used to be a popular idea. I don't think it works because there is no guarantee they despot will optimize for country outcome rather than personal enjoyment.

My main worry about enlightened despotism is "what happens when the despot kicks the bucket?". No guarantee their successor will be as enlightened as them.

If you solve the succession problem, enlightened despotism starts sounding very good.

Re: China’s plan to give every citizen a social credit score

#42

Post by jqm »

amyjess wrote: post #41
im3w1l wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Enlightened despotism used to be a popular idea. I don't think it works because there is no guarantee they despot will optimize for country outcome rather than personal enjoyment.

My main worry about enlightened despotism is "what happens when the despot kicks the bucket?". No guarantee their successor will be as enlightened as them. If you solve the succession problem, enlightened despotism starts sounding very good.

Except the term "enlightened" is most often relative to a groups desired outcomes...

Re: China’s plan to give every citizen a social credit score

#43

Post by intopieces »

hugh4 wrote: post #2

Old-school dictatorships were so brash and clumsy the way they punished dissent with firing squads and trips to the gulag. It's just as effective to punish dissent by slowly but surely ruining the life of those who express dissenting opinions. That way, instead of making dissenters into martyrs, you just make them look like losers. Very clever, China.

Japan has a similar system that isn't even sanctioned by the government. It's created an entire generation of young people who have dropped out of society.

Re: China’s plan to give every citizen a social credit score

#44

Post by morb »

intopieces wrote: post #43
hugh4 wrote: post #2

Old-school dictatorships were so brash and clumsy the way they punished dissent with firing squads and trips to the gulag. It's just as effective to punish dissent by slowly but surely ruining the life of those who express dissenting opinions. That way, instead of making dissenters into martyrs, you just make them look like losers. Very clever, China.

Japan has a similar system that isn't even sanctioned by the government. It's created an entire generation of young people who have dropped out of society.

Could you please provide some links about this? I'm curious.

Re: China’s plan to give every citizen a social credit score

#45

Post by taterbase »

falcor84 wrote: post #7

On the one hand, this is very spooky. On the other, it seems like it could be a precursor to a social currency similar to the Whuffie[0] in Cory Doctorow's "Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom". I remember that reading that book, I couldn't help but feel that, as we move closer to a post-scarcity society, the rise of something like that would be inevitable, and might in some ways be much better than what we have now. […

I think this idea is intoxicating however the problem is we don't currently live in a post-scarcity society (and I don't see that changing very soon). Inequality is still rampant and something like this could do more harm than good by preventing the pressure and change needed to to get past it.

Re: China’s plan to give every citizen a social credit score

#46

Post by collyw »

devit wrote: post #22

Looks like all this does is cause people to waste time optimizing the score, and make the wealthy better off since they can hire the service of consultants specializing in this.

Pretty much like our current financial system then. You can send ages moving your money from one investment to another. The rich already pay professionals for that and genrally come out on top. Just sticking your money in a normal account and it effectively diminishes over the years.

Re: China’s plan to give every citizen a social credit score

#47

Post by intopieces »

morb wrote: post #44
intopieces wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan has a similar system that isn't even sanctioned by the government. It's created an entire generation of young people who have dropped out of society.

Could you please provide some links about this? I'm curious.

I recommend the book "Shutting Out the Sun: How Japan Created Its Own Lost Generation" by Michael Zielenziger. The main topic is Hikikomori, a group of (mostly young, mostly male) Japanese people who, unable to handle to immense pressure to conform to Japanese society, shut themselves in their rooms 24/7 and depend on their parents.

Re: China’s plan to give every citizen a social credit score

#48

Post by FelixP »

walterbell wrote: post #3

Charles Stross commented on these reports, http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2015/10/it-could... "The gamification of social conformity, overseen by an authoritarian government and mediated by nudge theory, is a thing of beauty and horror; who needs cops with nightsticks to beat up dissidents when their friends and family will give them a tongue-lashing on behalf of the government for the price of a discoun…

One interesting thing to note is that this allows for the exact quantification ("pricing") of various forms of dissent. If a large enough segment of the population is willing to pay a measurable financial cost in order to engage in a certain behavior, the government will be able to monitor (and respond) to that in near real time.

Re: China’s plan to give every citizen a social credit score

#49

Post by TeMPOraL »

jqm wrote: post #42
amyjess wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My main worry about enlightened despotism is "what happens when the despot kicks the bucket?". No guarantee their successor will be as enlightened as them. If you solve the succession problem, enlightened despotism starts sounding very good.

Except the term "enlightened" is most often relative to a groups desired outcomes...

That's good enough. It's better to have a stable and reasonable ruler that tries to do the Right Thing (i.e. optimize globally in the scale of country) than everyone trying to have it their - however smart or stupid - way.

Re: China’s plan to give every citizen a social credit score

#50

Post by jqm »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #49
jqm wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except the term "enlightened" is most often relative to a groups desired outcomes...

That's good enough. It's better to have a stable and reasonable ruler that tries to do the Right Thing (i.e. optimize globally in the scale of country) than everyone trying to have it their - however smart or stupid - way.

Well I don't fully disagree, but then there are the "enlightened" rulers of ISIS trying to do the "right thing" for humanity...
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