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Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

independent.co.uk

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Re: Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

#41

Post by MichaelGG »

WalterBright wrote: post #28
sixQuarks wrote: post #21

Another reason why Tesla is so far ahead of the game. Elon Musk had the engineers design the vehicle to be as safe as possible, period. They didn't design the safety of the car with the crash tests in mind. They passed all the crash tests with flying colors as a side-effect of actually designing for safety.

A lot of people think that airliner safety comes from the FAA hammering on Boeing. That's not true at all. It's the attitude of Boeing and Boeing engineers that make it safe. (I used to be a Boeing engineer on flight critical systems.) The worst nightmare of a Boeing engineer is an accident resulting from his design mistake. The worst for me was when the Alaska 717 went down because the stabilizer jackscrew failed. I…

The FAA hammers on pilots and airlines too though, which might otherwise try to cut corners to save costs on safety.

I am very impressed with US Aerospace engineering. Having read a book or two containing personal accounts, it makes me feel "proud" of American engineering, even though I'm not American.

I've written software for 9-1-1 and the first few months in operation, I barely slept and would often awake terrified. I can only imagine how it must be for someone that might actually actively kill many people due to an engineering flaw.

Re: Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

#42

Post by Retric »

celticninja wrote: post #18
bencoder wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read that, I saw the difference. Sorry I wasn't clear in my original post. I meant: what causes the difference? Why is there such a big difference?

Quite simply US car manufacturers don't have to make their cars as safe, as a result they include bare minimum safety requirements to pass regulation and save on costs. As another poster says it also seems that they do little R&D in this area either, again probably to save costs and to be able spend money designing more inefficient trucks for single occupants.

That's only part of it, US law requires safty systems to designed around for an adult not using a belt which results in a less safe car when someone wares a belt or is not an adult male.

PS: EU microcar are terrable in high speed crashes, but there not designed for high speed driving either. So it's generally not a real world issue.

Re: Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

#43

Post by WalterBright »

bruceboughton wrote: post #33
WalterBright wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather have racing-style belts and no air bag. Racing style go over both shoulders, are wider, and are fixed length. There are some horrific crashes in auto racing and the drivers walk away. That convinces me.

Do you also want to wear a HANS device every time you drive? That's a big part of the reason drivers walk away from horrific crashes these days. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HANS_device

The seat belts are the most effective. Helmets and HANS add to that, but the belts are the #1 safety device.

Another anecdote is in order. My father was a fighter jet instructor. The usual arrangement is tandem seating. He related an incident where the jet went off the runway, the nose gear sunk into the mud and the jet went up on its nose.

The guy in back had taken off his shoulder harness while taxiing, but left the helmet and lap belt on. He hit the dash so hard it left his brains splattered all over it, despite having a helmet.

The guy in front left his shoulder harness on, and was uninjured.

My father said that after seeing that, he never unbuckled the harness until the airplane was parked and the engines shut down. He also never moved his car an inch unless everyone in it was buckled up, and this was in the early 1960's long before it was fashionable. I picked up the habit from him :-)

Re: Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

#44

Post by MichaelGG »

sixQuarks wrote: post #21

Another reason why Tesla is so far ahead of the game. Elon Musk had the engineers design the vehicle to be as safe as possible, period. They didn't design the safety of the car with the crash tests in mind. They passed all the crash tests with flying colors as a side-effect of actually designing for safety.

None of the Tesla cars are as "safe as possible". Trivial proof: Reducing the max speed to 1kph would make it safer. Just like after 11-Sept the USG said they will prevent another attack "at all costs". Why not shut down all flights permanently then?

Tesla might design cars to a very high safety standard, but it's certainly a tradeoff with performance, style, comfort, etc.

Apologies in advance if this was pointlessly pedantic.

Re: Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

#45

Post by rplst8 »

mootothemax wrote: post #30
WalterBright wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather have racing-style belts and no air bag. Racing style go over both shoulders, are wider, and are fixed length. There are some horrific crashes in auto racing and the drivers walk away. That convinces me.

The same racing drivers who have to wear top-line racing helmets connected to HANS devices, wear fire-resistant overalls, have medical teams on immediate standby, and who are often strapped in by their mechanics before heading off? I think you may be overlooking an awful lot of what makes modern motor racing safer than it was in the past. (and that's ignoring the number of serious injuries and driver deaths that stil…

Before the HANS device was used in NASCAR, I witnessed some serious wrecks during auto-racing that drivers got out of the car under their own power and were fine.

I wonder if the percentage of fatalities from wrecks in auto racing is better or worse that high speed accidents on public highways. It would be an interesting statistic to compare.

Re: Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

#46

Post by alkonaut »

amatix wrote: post #35
alkonaut wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure but I think airbags do detonate on most cars, regardless of the seat belt status. It would be too complicated or unreliable to couple the two systems. However: an airbag isn't very effective (and could even be dangerous) without the seat belt, so manufacturers in Europe aren't really required to worry about the safety without seat belts. Effectively the safety regulations say: those with no seat belts ar…

> I think optional seat belt laws as found in some parts of the US can make some sense there (owing a lot to the fact that there is no single payer healthcare...) Wat? So because the taxpayer isn't directly picking up the healthcare bill, it's somehow okay to double serious crash-related injuries and deaths[1]? [1] "Seat belts reduce serious crash-related injuries and deaths by about half." http://www.cdc.gov/motorve…

It's an age-old debate of "is it ok to (risk) hurting yourself?". Obviously car crashes and other injuries/deaths come at high cost to society even in the case of privatized health insurances, but the cost is at least indirect rather than direct. It's probably even true that the majority of the cost is indirect, and not related to healthcare. That said, not having a seat belt/helmet law is... well, stupid.

Re: Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

#47

Post by WalterBright »

bruceboughton wrote: post #38
WalterBright wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people think that airliner safety comes from the FAA hammering on Boeing. That's not true at all. It's the attitude of Boeing and Boeing engineers that make it safe. (I used to be a Boeing engineer on flight critical systems.) The worst nightmare of a Boeing engineer is an accident resulting from his design mistake. The worst for me was when the Alaska 717 went down because the stabilizer jackscrew failed. I…

> I also know of instances where Boeing produced safer designs and had to lobby the FAA to get them to accept them. One example is using twin engines on overwater flights, rather than 3 or 4. The twin engines are statistically safer. Interesting. Why do you think it is that twin engines are statistically safer? I thought redundancy was a normal part of the safety toolkit for planes.

I was told that more engines mean more possible failures, and that outweighed the advantage of redundancy. It's counterintuitive, but when you work the numbers for engines, it's true. It took Boeing a few years to convince the FAA.

Re: Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

#48

Post by rplst8 »

masklinn wrote: post #16
the-dude wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the timing is very interesting with regard to dieselgate.

Yes it's really fun all around, with EU manufacturers trying to bypass/fudge more stringent US emission regulations and US manufacturers trying to bypass/fudge more stringent EU safety regulations.

I'd take more stringent safety standards over ridiculous emissions standards any day. Though, you could argue stricter safety standards fly in the face of emissions standards. More weight in the car, plus if the occupant survives, their carbon footprint is still there.

Re: Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

#49

Post by gambiting »

rplst8 wrote: post #45
mootothemax wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same racing drivers who have to wear top-line racing helmets connected to HANS devices, wear fire-resistant overalls, have medical teams on immediate standby, and who are often strapped in by their mechanics before heading off? I think you may be overlooking an awful lot of what makes modern motor racing safer than it was in the past. (and that's ignoring the number of serious injuries and driver deaths that stil…

Before the HANS device was used in NASCAR, I witnessed some serious wrecks during auto-racing that drivers got out of the car under their own power and were fine. I wonder if the percentage of fatalities from wrecks in auto racing is better or worse that high speed accidents on public highways. It would be an interesting statistic to compare.

Nascar cars use roll cages, so as long as you are strapped into your seat safely you will survive most crashes, if the car doesn't catch fire. Most regular cars don't have roll cages.

Re: Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP'

#50

Post by seren »

alkonaut wrote: post #14
seren wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might be wrong but it seems the point of the TTIP is to say "Ok our norms are equivalent in the US and EU, so a US car does not need to pass EuroNCAP to be sold in Europe" Or rather we would align EuroNCAP on less demanding american norms, which would have the same result. A five star EuroNCAP post-TTIP would not be equivalent to a 5 star pre-TTIP.

EuroNCAP isn't a regulatory thing, and it isn't mandatory, it's basically just publicly fundded consumer information. Even if more models are allowed to be sold because they pass new "harmoinized" (read: relaxed) safety regulations after TTIP, they won't sell unless they score high on NCAP. (Specialty models like pickups, performance cars likely not that sensitive, but regular passenger cars and SUV's definitely woul…

Thanks for the clarification. In my mind, it was mandatory.
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