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Well vs. Equal Temperament (2000)

math.uwaterloo.ca

41–50 of 64 posts

Re: Well vs. Equal Temperament (2000)

#41
post #2

Does anyone have links to audio samples where these differences are prominent? In addition to comments, this video has a decent comparison using sawtooth tones: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRlp-OH0OEA

for one of my digital pianos (Yamaha), there's options for these (besides ET):

- pure major/minor

- pythagorean

- mean tone

- werckmeister/kirnberger, which i've heard mentioned as a good option for acoustic pianos a few times (i suppose i should try it)

For any besides ET, you have to specify the root/base note.

I think my synths have these options as well, so if you know anybody that has one, you can try it yourself. I think for string instruments, a few cents difference is pretty audible, but not so much for, say clarinet which doesn't have the sharp transients, unless you're playing above the treble clef staff. and then when you hit a track with overdrive/distortion, reverb and delay, it becomes very hard to discern differences.

Re: Well vs. Equal Temperament (2000)

#43
I appreciate a good attack on 12-tone Equal Temperament from time to time (and more importantly a good defense of natural intervals), but this article really goes over the top in being extremely opinionated while forcibly trying to sound factual.

His point is not helped by making false claims such as "Equal temperament actually did not come into use until the 20th century."

More importantly, the idea that Bach's WTC was intended to "demostrate the varying key colors in well tempered tuning as one progresses around the circle of fifths" sounds pretty uncanny when you know some context. As an organist, Bach was used to being heavily restrained in which keys and intervals could be used while dodging the many obstacles that were dissonances in the instrument's tuning.

The purpose of Well temperament, used on the harpsichord, was to get rid of those limitations and gain the ability to transpose everything freely while remaining consonant and in-tune. In this way, the Well temperament can be seen as an approximation of equal temperament in a time when the mathematical tools to achieve it were not really known.

To me, it's pretty clear that the WTC is Bach gleefully exploring the freedom of transposition-invariance and free modulation. In other words: Bach would have loved the equal temperament, and this article would likely give him a hearty chuckle.

I like natural intervals, but dividing the octave in 12 tones is a rather inappropriate way of using them. European classical music adopted this system early on, and therefore was doomed to end up on the equal temperament at some point. It's not the ultimate system nor the end of temperaments, but it's been really, really useful.

Re: Well vs. Equal Temperament (2000)

#44
post #43

I appreciate a good attack on 12-tone Equal Temperament from time to time (and more importantly a good defense of natural intervals), but this article really goes over the top in being extremely opinionated while forcibly trying to sound factual. His point is not helped by making false claims such as " Equal temperament actually did not come into use until the 20th century. " More importantly, the idea that Bach's WT…

In addition, the article puts forth a commonly held (but false) notion that equal temperament destroys any sense of key color or identity, apart from pitch. That would be true if every instrument or voice sounded exactly the same throughout its entire range, but that is never the case.

Even in equal temperament a G minor chord sounds different than a D minor chord because they fall on different ranges of the instruments and the human auditory system. If you try transposing a piece in G minor to D minor, you'll notice a clear difference. You could either go up a 5th or down a 4th. If you choose to go up a 5th, things will sound quite a bit brighter. Conversely, going down a 4th could very well cause the piece to sound muddier, depending on the orchestration. At any rate, the other forms of tuning have other effects, of course, and are worthwhile to explore.

Re: Well vs. Equal Temperament (2000)

#45
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To make matters worse, or maybe better, most non keyboard instruments have no sensible temperament whatsoever. Even fretted instruments are a compromise.

Most non keyboard instruments have ways to adjust the pitch slightly per interval while playing, allowing experienced players to play all intervals perfectly.

Yes. I played flute as a kid, and I remember C-sharp in particular as being troublesome. Today I play double bass, and of course intonation is a significant factor in technique. Also, good players will push the notes up and down for effect.

Re: Well vs. Equal Temperament (2000)

#46
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went looking. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBt6APk21tU

Thank you. That is astounding. I wonder if there is any way to find music performed using original tunings. It sounds SO much better to me.

Look for recordings using the terms "period instruments", "historically informed performance" (HIP), or "early music". There are several ensembles, both orchestral and choral, that perform music in a historically informed way. Check out one list here: http://musicmoz.org/Styles/Classical/Occidental/Periods/Earl...

Re: Well vs. Equal Temperament (2000)

#47
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't that be nice, rather than whining about numbers? It's an informative article, but the reality is that nobody cares . And I mean "nobody" in the approximate sense of 99.9% of music listeners. The reality is that our brains are more than happy to glue these nasty thirds to their hypothetical frequencies. Sure, they have a little roughness to them, but it's not a big deal, especially considering that most piano…

It's probably true that 99.9% of music listeners don't know, don't care, and can't tell the difference. But a few of us care a lot, and it's sometimes very important. I've been recently obsessed with barbershop quartet music, where the tuning of chords is absolutely pivotal. The alignment of overtones from justly tuned chords is, if you ask me, the entire point of the genre. The "ringing" produced from the aligned ov…

You make a good counterpoint, for barbershop. It's definitely a form designed to bring out the effect of these microintervalic adjustments. Of course, those cords are sung in just intonation, not well temperament :)

I probably could have phrased my comment a little bit more delicately, but my point was in reaction to the article, not the overall concept of tunings and temperaments. What drives me nuts are these "you're doing it all wrong" types articles about something that really makes very little difference to most people. Especially this one, in which the author really didn't bother to provide any auditory demonstration of a purely auditory phenomenon.

Re: Well vs. Equal Temperament (2000)

#48
post #5
post #3

So this is interesting, I know a piano tuner who has tuned for countless famous artist. He was working on a project to record songs, like Beethoven, as someone would have heard it in his time.

I actually found it a little odd that Beethoven was mentioned, since it he was a big fan of equal temperment. His 5th symphony was largely written to explore the idea. In well tempered tunings, you have to play around a central "root note" in order to get a harmonic melody. But in equal temperment, the dissonance is equally spread out across the notes. His 5th symphony was able to take advantage of that in two ways:…

I had no idea that Beethoven used equal temperament. Do you have a source for that?

Re: Well vs. Equal Temperament (2000)

#49
post #43

I appreciate a good attack on 12-tone Equal Temperament from time to time (and more importantly a good defense of natural intervals), but this article really goes over the top in being extremely opinionated while forcibly trying to sound factual. His point is not helped by making false claims such as " Equal temperament actually did not come into use until the 20th century. " More importantly, the idea that Bach's WT…

> In this way, the Well temperament can be seen as an approximation of equal temperament in a time when the mathematical tools to achieve it were not really known.

Is there any evidence for this narrative? Like anyone from the time writing about this who said "the keys are not all identical, but this well-tempered tuning is the best we are capable of doing."

> The purpose of Well temperament, used on the harpsichord, was to get rid of those limitations and gain the ability to transpose everything freely while remaining consonant and in-tune.

It was certainly designed to make all keys usable, but it doesn't necessarily follow that all keys were intended to be identical.

Re: Well vs. Equal Temperament (2000)

#50
post #18
post #8

Aside from temperament, I had my piano tuner claim to me that tuning pianos is actually more complicated than that. He said that the high end of the piano had to be tuned different from the low end, with some explanation like how the hammer strike bends the pitch of low vs high strings (I wish I could remember the specifics of what he said, but this was many years ago). I couldn't decide at the time if what he was sa…

Yup. There's even a strange thing where as we get older, our perception of low tones changes so that music that sounds out of tune for an 18 year old sounds great to an 80 year old.

Do you have a source for this? Sounds really fascinating, and I would love to read more about this.
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