Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

OpenWRT vs. FCC – Forced Firmware Lockdown? [video]

cnx-software.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 126 posts

Re: OpenWRT vs. FCC – Forced Firmware Lockdown? [video]

#41

Post by function_seven »

tzs wrote: post #27
chatmasta wrote: post #22

As a skeptic I have to wonder whether Google lobbied for this prior to their OnHub release. I'm also expecting Apple to announce some sort of router on Sep 9 to go with HomeKit + AppleTV. Both parties would have a vested interest in locking down the open source router ecosystem.

If you are not using a Google or Apple router, I don't see why they would care if you are running third party firmware on your router. If you are using a Google or Apple router and they do not want you to replace the firmware on it they could use signed firmware already. They would not need to have the FCC tell them that they have to use signed firmware in order to use signed firmware. If there was some way to use th…

I think parent meant competition. If all other choices are super-exploitable crapware-laden routers, then Google's and Apple's devices become that much more valuable. Not sure effects on the market would be that great, but I can see how it would benefit GOOG/AAPL to reduce choices.

Re: OpenWRT vs. FCC – Forced Firmware Lockdown? [video]

#43

Post by nickysielicki »

cpncrunch wrote: post #33
uuuusername wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PLEASE put in comments on this proceeding, everyone! WE NEED YOUR HELP!

First I would advise you to understand why this is being done. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10137739

I don't understand your/his reasoning here.

* People don't enable DFS and they mess up radar for Airports.

* ~20 reported incidents, people are fined ~$25k and stop.

* Therefore we must make it illegal to change the firmware on wireless devices.

Only 20 cases? $25k fines!? Why can't we continue to solve this problem like this? The hobbyists flashing their devices with OpenWRT and then making a conscious decision to override defaults (upon which OpenWRT will warn you about legality) are a rare breed. Those that foolishly do this are being fined heavily.

I just don't understand the jump.

Re: OpenWRT vs. FCC – Forced Firmware Lockdown? [video]

#44

Post by mindslight »

wmf wrote: post #38
mindslight wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their firmware is the feature they're selling you. The hardware is generic and without their wonderful firmware, they'd be competing solely on price. This is what the skinjobs think, at least. BTW, openvpn performance sucks eggs on the processors used in consumer routers.

AFAIK most lower-end routers have pretty generic firmware (with their logo added) as well. Maybe paying a no-name firmware sweatshop to tweak some reference firmware is cheaper than tweaking OpenWhatever.

Do they even have enough memory for OpenWRT? Maybe DD-WRT.

At the low end, I'd think the chipset manufacturer would do most of the software work, then the device manufacturer just cosmetically tweaks the reference.

Re: OpenWRT vs. FCC – Forced Firmware Lockdown? [video]

#45

Post by colechristensen »

dec0dedab0de wrote: post #42

I don't know too much about these things, but isn't it possible to have some sort of hardware filter on the antenna to block illegal channels?

They release physical hardware which is capable of operating in many regions and firmware which is specific to a region.

It's straightforward to create hardware which is physically incapable of violating licensure, but it is also expensive.

That's not the point though, it's becoming a serious problem with technology enabling restrictions which weren't possible in the past and which now threaten free society through a well intentioned but misguided bureaucracy.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

There's a certain unalienable right which is being encroached more and more – the right of ownership, the freedom to tinker.

That is more specifically, everyone should be capable of learning and executing complete control over the things they own. DRM, locked firmwares, license agreements – all of these things are a serious and existing threat to your freedom.

Re: OpenWRT vs. FCC – Forced Firmware Lockdown? [video]

#46

Post by dec0dedab0de »

cpncrunch wrote: post #33
uuuusername wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PLEASE put in comments on this proceeding, everyone! WE NEED YOUR HELP!

First I would advise you to understand why this is being done. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10137739

Why not just increase patrols for people breaking the law? Or change the radar to use a different frequency?

Honestly, if I had to decide between the ability to choose free software, and having all flights grounded indefinitely I would go with the software. I know my opinion is not the majority though.

Re: OpenWRT vs. FCC – Forced Firmware Lockdown? [video]

#47

Post by wlesieutre »

mindslight wrote: post #19
atmosx wrote: post #18

I recently bought an ADSL modem/router TP-Link 8970 (or something). The thing is awesome, except for that fact that it doesn't support OpenVPN... Supports PPTP or IPSec. Now if only, I could install OpenWRT on it. Since OpenWRT makes ROUNDS around every custom software I've seen on low-end ADSL modem/routers makes me wonder why on earth companies don't just ship OpenWRT and get over with it?

Their firmware is the feature they're selling you. The hardware is generic and without their wonderful firmware, they'd be competing solely on price. This is what the skinjobs think, at least. BTW, openvpn performance sucks eggs on the processors used in consumer routers.

Feels like the same problem that a lot of Android handsets have had. "Look! We added value by making the product worse!"

Re: OpenWRT vs. FCC – Forced Firmware Lockdown? [video]

#48

Post by cpncrunch »

nickysielicki wrote: post #43
cpncrunch wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First I would advise you to understand why this is being done. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10137739

I don't understand your/his reasoning here. * People don't enable DFS and they mess up radar for Airports. * ~20 reported incidents, people are fined ~$25k and stop. * Therefore we must make it illegal to change the firmware on wireless devices. Only 20 cases? $25k fines!? Why can't we continue to solve this problem like this? The hobbyists flashing their devices with OpenWRT and then making a conscious decision to o…

I guess they just don't want to make it too easy to do this, given the serious consequences.

Re: OpenWRT vs. FCC – Forced Firmware Lockdown? [video]

#49

Post by pdabbadabba »

mindslight wrote: post #12

Better off just building your own router. The high brow option is an embedded motherboard and minipcie wifi card. If the hardware is powerful enough to MASQ gigabit, it won't be obsolete for a decade. And you can upgrade wireless standards with a new card. The only reason there's such an upgrade cycle for consumer routers is that they're built shoddily and with the slowest CPU possible. And as much as I appreciate sp…

> And as much as I appreciate spectrum partitioning, we really need to get the major wifi chipsets completely reverse engineered so we can blow away this ambiguous spectre of "unauthorized" modifications and turn them into something normal. Randos stomping on ch12-15 isn't an actual problem - but that widespread rulebreaking coupled with the unknown of what further mods could do is scary to regulators. Destroy that unknown.

There was a lot of resistance to allowing unlicensed use of 5.25-5.35 GHz and 5.47-5.725 GHz precisely because some were afraid that unauthorized modifications would be commonplace, and devices could not be relied upon to sense and avoid the RADAR systems that also operate in those bands. So bear in mind that the more you insist on modifying, the harder it will be to persuade the FCC to open up new unlicensed bands.

Re: OpenWRT vs. FCC – Forced Firmware Lockdown? [video]

#50

Post by pdabbadabba »

dec0dedab0de wrote: post #46
cpncrunch wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First I would advise you to understand why this is being done. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10137739

Why not just increase patrols for people breaking the law? Or change the radar to use a different frequency? Honestly, if I had to decide between the ability to choose free software, and having all flights grounded indefinitely I would go with the software. I know my opinion is not the majority though.

It would have been a lot easier for the FCC to have just not allowed unlicensed use on these channels than move all the weather RADAR. Instead, they put a lot of effort into rules that would make unlicensed use possible alongside it. Please remember this before firing off your letters to the FCC, and think about the alternative if the Commission can't count of reliable DFS.
Post reply on HN