My lazy American students • Hacker News Board

Re: My lazy American students

#41

Post by randliu » Wed, Dec 23, 2009, 2:52 AM UTC

telemachos wrote: post #21

squidbot wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He might be intoning the stereotype (which may or may not be true) that there are more "slacker" students joining business programs, whereas engineering students tend to be more focused and disciplined. Therefore, you might see a very different article from an instructor at MIT.

Right, but that difference (if it were real, which I doubt) should cut across the two groups of students (American and non-American). Or at least, we have no reason to think that "business students are lazier than other students" tracks or causes the difference between Americans and others that the author focuses on.

I'm just saying that all the author is observing is that the students with the most to lose, work the hardest. Foreign students obviously have a lot to lose since they're coming overseas for an education. On the other hand, the American students she interacts with are likely wealthy and don't necessarily need stellar grades to move on to a professional degree program e.g. medical school.

Re: My lazy American students

#42

Post by RK » Wed, Dec 23, 2009, 3:07 AM UTC

carbocation wrote: post #33

randliu wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't explain any difference between American and other students, just that Babson's student body is different than most. From personal experience i've found the hardest working students to be those needing to get into professional school (law or medicine) as well as low-income/disadvantaged students who couldn't afford the $50k tuition/year to attend a private college.

Sure it does explain the difference, or at least it is easy to see how it could. From my experience interacting with foreign high school students from across the globe, they generally do not understand the hierarchy of higher ed in the US. At least, the ones I interact with have little knowledge of the reputations of colleges outside of Ivies + Stanford + MIT. (Clearly, you could argue that college rep != college qua…

I know a number of foreign students who came to the US as undergrads and essentially threw a dart at a map of the US.

For some reason I have met a number of Japanese students that spent 4 years at schools I had never heard of (like X+State+University+Branch Campus in a tiny town). And they usually were very good students who went on to good grad programs, employment, etc.

The point being that the quality/reputation of the school will not be proportional in the same way to the quality of the domestic students versus the quality of foreign students.

A final anecdote, when I was at a university in Germany, I saw a cheesy poster advertising a scholarship to study in the UK, sort of "Apply Now! Come to England!". The scholarship: The Rhodes. I asked a few Germans and none of them had heard of the Rhodes Scholarship, which is probably the most prestigious scholarship in the English speaking world.

Re: My lazy American students

#43

Post by yesimahuman » Wed, Dec 23, 2009, 3:08 AM UTC

tolenka wrote: post #37

yesimahuman wrote: post #5

One thing I still can't understand is how so many people are okay asking for an extension on something. I can't believe how many of my peers ask for extensions on papers and programming assignments. It's unreal. School might not be as high a priority as my startup right now, but I never turn in anything late. I think tardiness is the worst kind of habit to have.

Outside of school, deadlines are usually based on project estimates, and as long as you provide sufficient notice, it's often possible to adjust the schedule and dependent activities to fit the actual time required to complete task(s). If it's not possible, then business decisions have to be made regarding what tasks can be abandoned or modified to meet the hard deadlines -- regardless of how the business adapts, you…

I understand that. However, these employees want to get the work done on time, and see it as important, but couldn't get it done in the time estimate. The attitude I notice is more of an indifference to the deadline.

Re: My lazy American students

#44

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Dec 23, 2009, 3:11 AM UTC

deepakjois wrote: post #18

zaidf wrote: post #10

To offer a contrarian view, I have two friends from India this semester who got caught for plagiarizing in their English class. This is just this semester. I won't make any big judgement calls about international students based on observing my few friends. But hey, it does make me believe that international students are less aware of the consequences of things like plagiarizing. I think they are a little behind on it…

Based on your experience of two friends from India , you started believing that international students are less aware of the consequences of plagiarizing. Your point is nonsensical on so many levels. First, since when did 'two friends from India' begin reflecting the attitudes of millions of students all over the world ( international ), only a fraction of which end up in the US in the first place. Second, how can yo…

[deleted]

Re: My lazy American students

#45

Post by joe_the_user » Wed, Dec 23, 2009, 3:20 AM UTC

potatolicious wrote: post #19

zck wrote: post #2

This seems partially explained by selection bias -- the slackers from "India, China, and Latin America" don't come to America for college at the same rates as American slackers do. However, this doesn't explain the actual statistics she gives.

I grew up in Taiwan, so I think I can shed some light on this. IMHO "the average" Taiwanese student will work harder than the average American student, but not by a supremely gross margin as this article would imply. The bottom-barrel students never end up in American colleges, after all. The chief difference is cultural - in Asia intellectualism is celebrated and demanded. Parents don't push their kids to football,…

Great post, I'd also mention...

It take a certain to 'laziness' to solve a problem elegantly rather than through grinding effort.

This kind of laziness, the kind of laziness that great programmers laud, can require a bit of effort. It's the kind of effort mathematicians go through when they look at problem for five minutes before saying "it's trivial".

The America that built Silicone Valley sometimes had this right balance between effort and "laziness". Present America certainly seems to have taken a wrong turn.

Re: My lazy American students

#46

Post by joe_the_user » Wed, Dec 23, 2009, 3:22 AM UTC

chancho wrote: post #39

potatolicious wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in Taiwan, so I think I can shed some light on this. IMHO "the average" Taiwanese student will work harder than the average American student, but not by a supremely gross margin as this article would imply. The bottom-barrel students never end up in American colleges, after all. The chief difference is cultural - in Asia intellectualism is celebrated and demanded. Parents don't push their kids to football,…

Thanks for sharing your account of student life in Taiwan. It's always nice to hear firsthand about life in other cultures so that we don't hang onto our misconceptions. On that note, let me suggest that your caricature of American student life is a little cartoonish. Yeah it's like that in a lot of schools, but if your son or daughter goes to one of those schools then you live in a shitty neighborhood and should mov…

That was my experience growing in the US too. But that was 30+ years ago. About when did you graduate?

Re: My lazy American students

#47

Post by tolenka » Wed, Dec 23, 2009, 3:28 AM UTC

yesimahuman wrote: post #43

tolenka wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outside of school, deadlines are usually based on project estimates, and as long as you provide sufficient notice, it's often possible to adjust the schedule and dependent activities to fit the actual time required to complete task(s). If it's not possible, then business decisions have to be made regarding what tasks can be abandoned or modified to meet the hard deadlines -- regardless of how the business adapts, you…

I understand that. However, these employees want to get the work done on time, and see it as important, but couldn't get it done in the time estimate. The attitude I notice is more of an indifference to the deadline.

I do understand the indifference -- the deadline is more or less completely arbitrary, as there are very few critical scheduling issues dependent on strictly punctual delivery, and all that is really required is reasonable timeliness. If the professors allow it, why not use the additional latitude to your advantage?

Hard deadlines are generally driven by what are ultimately financial/market concerns. I sweat the deadlines when a trade show is approaching, and I sweat the budget when we see schedule slippage on an release, but most of the time I'm happy as long as everyone is productive, progress is being made, and the budget looks OK.

Re: My lazy American students

#48

Post by stevejohnson » Wed, Dec 23, 2009, 4:36 AM UTC

joe_the_user wrote: post #46

chancho wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for sharing your account of student life in Taiwan. It's always nice to hear firsthand about life in other cultures so that we don't hang onto our misconceptions. On that note, let me suggest that your caricature of American student life is a little cartoonish. Yeah it's like that in a lot of schools, but if your son or daughter goes to one of those schools then you live in a shitty neighborhood and should mov…

That was my experience growing in the US too. But that was 30+ years ago. About when did you graduate?

I share chancho's experience and I graduated in 2007.

Re: My lazy American students

#49

Post by krschultz » Wed, Dec 23, 2009, 5:06 AM UTC

deepakjois wrote: post #18

zaidf wrote: post #10

To offer a contrarian view, I have two friends from India this semester who got caught for plagiarizing in their English class. This is just this semester. I won't make any big judgement calls about international students based on observing my few friends. But hey, it does make me believe that international students are less aware of the consequences of things like plagiarizing. I think they are a little behind on it…

Based on your experience of two friends from India , you started believing that international students are less aware of the consequences of plagiarizing. Your point is nonsensical on so many levels. First, since when did 'two friends from India' begin reflecting the attitudes of millions of students all over the world ( international ), only a fraction of which end up in the US in the first place. Second, how can yo…

Isn't that his point? That making gross generalizations off a small sample size is ridiculous? That's what I got out of it anyway.

Re: My lazy American students

#50

Post by maximilian » Wed, Dec 23, 2009, 6:11 AM UTC

joe_the_user wrote: post #45

potatolicious wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in Taiwan, so I think I can shed some light on this. IMHO "the average" Taiwanese student will work harder than the average American student, but not by a supremely gross margin as this article would imply. The bottom-barrel students never end up in American colleges, after all. The chief difference is cultural - in Asia intellectualism is celebrated and demanded. Parents don't push their kids to football,…

Great post, I'd also mention... It take a certain to 'laziness' to solve a problem elegantly rather than through grinding effort. This kind of laziness, the kind of laziness that great programmers laud, can require a bit of effort. It's the kind of effort mathematicians go through when they look at problem for five minutes before saying "it's trivial". The America that built Silicone Valley sometimes had this right b…

I would say that you speak of 'cleverness' instead of laziness. If I look at a problem that looks like a ton of tedious work, it is eminently useful to spend time just thinking about the solution.

If anything, its an appreciation for elegance.

But maybe its just laziness as you say. If a solution looks like a grind, I will spend just as much time trying to find an elegant solution (probably more) because I don't want to just grind out the solution.