How the United States Lost the Naval War of 2015 • Hacker News Board

Re: How the United States Lost the Naval War of 2015

#41

Post by gaius » Sat, Dec 19, 2009, 1:14 AM UTC

eru wrote: post #36

gaius wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the US gets for that money tho' is a vast amount of tech that eventually ends up with the general public. I have two GPSs on me at the moment. Which is ridiculous but hey, they're so cheap, why not stick one in every electronic device?! There's a reason that all that comes out of the US. The EU as a whole spends about half what the US does on defence and ends up with about 10% of the capability. Hmm.

Your first argument would be more interesting, if you could compare it with a situation where the money remains in civilian hands. (E.g. during the Second World War a lot of new technology came out of the military, too. But that was only to expect, since all resources went into the military.)

A good example is the UK. We spend ~200Bn a year on welfare and ~30Bn a year on defence. Yet the US leads in almost every technological field.

Re: How the United States Lost the Naval War of 2015

#42

Post by dflock » Sat, Dec 19, 2009, 3:36 AM UTC

nfnaaron wrote: post #19

hugh_ wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Sub launched cruise missiles, or mines?) Nukes. If I were the US, I'd simply make it an official matter of policy that any attack from a nuclear power would result in an immediate nuclear response, the logic being that once two nuclear powers are at war it's probably going to turn nuclear eventually, so you might as well make the first strike.

If I were the US, I'd simply make it a matter of official policy to make as many official, unofficial, formal, informal, commercial and personal ties to every country in the world as possible, to the maximum extent that any ideology on either side allows. Yes, certainly we need to maintain defensive and offensive military capabilities, but I think we should be doing much, much more to reduce the need for those capabi…

This is, more or less, the original founding intent of the European Union. Given that the last 60 years has been free of major land wars in Europe - the longest period of peace on the continent since the fall of the Roman Empire in ~470AD, it seems to be working fairly well. (ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pax_Europaea).

Re: How the United States Lost the Naval War of 2015

#43

Post by blueben » Sat, Dec 19, 2009, 10:54 AM UTC

irrelative wrote: post #17

gwern wrote: post #2

Blah blah blah. 'I'm a Navy shill and let me tell you, China's going to kill us all within a very implausibly short-time if we don't shovel billions into cool new ships & weapons. We must eliminate the carrier gap!' Haven't we heard this story before? And here I was hoping for an interesting analysis of the Iran wargames and the dismal results for the carrier groups, but all I got was let's build a bigger bluewater f…

Indeed. It was a Tom Clancy book with a hawkish pitch. Let me know when the movie adaptation comes out.

Because there isn't enough pornography on DVD already...

You know the author of this story was hot and bothered during the entire writing process. A Christian, no doubt, too. Probably skipped Bible study when they covered the section that says "Those who delight in violence [God] abhors".

Re: How the United States Lost the Naval War of 2015

#44

Post by maelstrom » Sat, Dec 19, 2009, 7:01 PM UTC

dflock wrote: post #42

nfnaaron wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I were the US, I'd simply make it a matter of official policy to make as many official, unofficial, formal, informal, commercial and personal ties to every country in the world as possible, to the maximum extent that any ideology on either side allows. Yes, certainly we need to maintain defensive and offensive military capabilities, but I think we should be doing much, much more to reduce the need for those capabi…

This is, more or less, the original founding intent of the European Union. Given that the last 60 years has been free of major land wars in Europe - the longest period of peace on the continent since the fall of the Roman Empire in ~470AD, it seems to be working fairly well. (ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pax_Europaea ).

I think the EU is great, but I wonder how much of that peace can be attributed to both the United States and USSR both having large armies camped through Europe for most of that time.

Re: How the United States Lost the Naval War of 2015

#45

Post by nfnaaron » Sat, Dec 19, 2009, 7:17 PM UTC

maelstrom wrote: post #44

dflock wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is, more or less, the original founding intent of the European Union. Given that the last 60 years has been free of major land wars in Europe - the longest period of peace on the continent since the fall of the Roman Empire in ~470AD, it seems to be working fairly well. (ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pax_Europaea ).

I think the EU is great, but I wonder how much of that peace can be attributed to both the United States and USSR both having large armies camped through Europe for most of that time.

I had the same thought. The answer is there is no one thing that does/did it. I'm sure it doesn't hurt that Germany and France are closer to partners than combatants.

Re: How the United States Lost the Naval War of 2015

#46

Post by dflock » Sun, Dec 20, 2009, 10:17 AM UTC

nfnaaron wrote: post #45

maelstrom wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the EU is great, but I wonder how much of that peace can be attributed to both the United States and USSR both having large armies camped through Europe for most of that time.

I had the same thought. The answer is there is no one thing that does/did it. I'm sure it doesn't hurt that Germany and France are closer to partners than combatants.

Yeah, external factors like those mentioned obviously play a part, as do internal factors, as taught to us by playing Civilisation - fat happy democracies don't like making war very much, or for very long; it's expensive and you have to get off the couch...

Re: How the United States Lost the Naval War of 2015

#47

Post by etherael » Tue, Dec 22, 2009, 2:23 AM UTC

run4yourlives wrote: post #34

barrkel wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The others may mock you, but you are in fact correct as to why it is impossible for two nuclear-armed foes to fight directly. There will never be a hot war between US and China for so long as nuclear weapons have no effective defense. Nuclear weapons are probably the single biggest enabler of peace on the planet.

>There will never be a hot war between US and China for so long as nuclear weapons have no effective defense. I beg to differ. First, see India v. Pakistan as a direct counter to your "impossible" statement. Second, as the example shows, the line you draw regarding using nukes does not extend all the way down to the rifleman. It's entirely possible to start a conventional and/or localized war with the understanding t…

So, how to fix the religious, then?