Why Startups Are Making the Expensive Switch to Traditional Employment • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Startups Are Making the Expensive Switch to Traditional Employment

#41

Post by JustSomeNobody » Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 5:43 PM UTC

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #4

I feel like Silicon Valley tends to think they can save money by skipping out on whatever big businesses have always done, until they find out later that it was a bad idea, and businesses did things that way for a reason. It's what happens, I think, when 20-somethings think they know what they're doing over experienced people with 20-something years of experience in the business world.

Nothing wrong with experimenting. But if they're going to experiment they should research first why some practice is in place. Maybe someone smarter has already done the experiment.

But yeah, there's a lot of the attitude of we'll just do everything different. That's just wrongheaded, stubborn and immature.

Re: Why Startups Are Making the Expensive Switch to Traditional Employment

#42

Post by JustSomeNobody » Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 5:44 PM UTC

andyidsinga wrote: post #11

JoshTriplett wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's something to be said for experimenting. Some experiments turn out to be a bad idea; other experiments end up making sense. Always good to figure out which practices have a sensible reason, and which are just "the way we do things".

yes, the experiment is key ...and means a hypothesis and means to test and measure results is also required.

Yes. Indeed.

Re: Why Startups Are Making the Expensive Switch to Traditional Employment

#43

Post by 49531 » Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 5:48 PM UTC

littletimmy wrote: post #14

> "Under the contractor model, Lee says, the leaders at Luxe hadn’t been able to schedule workers for unpopular hours like late nights on Friday and Saturday; they could only bribe them to come online with higher rates of pay, as Uber does with surge pricing." Seriously? If someone is working Friday nights or Saturday nights, he SHOULD have higher pay. What it is with CEOs that they feel they are entitled to their wo…

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a valet to work on Friday or Saturday nights.

Re: Why Startups Are Making the Expensive Switch to Traditional Employment

#44

Post by bmj » Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 5:48 PM UTC

mmagin wrote: post #39

bmj wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting this to be the norm across industries? Like, the folks working the registers at Target on Friday night? What about Monday night? Or Wednesday night? How does that differ?

Well, it's not entirely irrational that a society might decide that having to work in a way contrary to the natural diurnal cycle deserves higher pay. (Yes, I am suggesting that perhaps our society's obsession with having things like retail stores available 24/7 might not be healthy.)

That's reasonable, but we're talking about more than just 24/7 retail here. Even in the days before the 24 hour grocery store, restaurants and bars were open on Friday and Saturday nights (and most evenings, for that matter), and I don't believe those folks received higher pay.

Don't get me wrong, I think the U.S. 24/7 retail economy is bonkers, but I'm not sure it's reasonable to just bless 9-5 as the official time of economic activity. In the 1990s, I ran a climbing gym, and typically worked 3pm-11pm (or some variation of that) Monday through Friday. I kinda liked that schedule, as it allowed me to be more productive with "life" stuff because I could accomplish things before I went to work.

Re: Why Startups Are Making the Expensive Switch to Traditional Employment

#45

Post by tmm » Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 5:48 PM UTC

bmj wrote: post #29

littletimmy wrote: post #14

> "Under the contractor model, Lee says, the leaders at Luxe hadn’t been able to schedule workers for unpopular hours like late nights on Friday and Saturday; they could only bribe them to come online with higher rates of pay, as Uber does with surge pricing." Seriously? If someone is working Friday nights or Saturday nights, he SHOULD have higher pay. What it is with CEOs that they feel they are entitled to their wo…

Are you suggesting this to be the norm across industries? Like, the folks working the registers at Target on Friday night? What about Monday night? Or Wednesday night? How does that differ?

It should be the norm across industries. I don't know if this is done or not in retail, but it is common enough in manufacturing (even in non-union shops). It event has a name; it's called a shift differential, and it can be quite lucrative for the employee. Especially if they can work a normal 40-hour week and pick up a night shift on Saturday or Sunday. That one additional shift, with the shift differential and overtime could be the equivalent of two and a half or three normal days.

Re: Why Startups Are Making the Expensive Switch to Traditional Employment

#46

Post by johnchristopher » Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 5:51 PM UTC

littletimmy wrote: post #14

> "Under the contractor model, Lee says, the leaders at Luxe hadn’t been able to schedule workers for unpopular hours like late nights on Friday and Saturday; they could only bribe them to come online with higher rates of pay, as Uber does with surge pricing." Seriously? If someone is working Friday nights or Saturday nights, he SHOULD have higher pay. What it is with CEOs that they feel they are entitled to their wo…

Come on, there is that whole "If you do what you love it's never going to work" meme permeating this (online) community and others. With the proverbial and tangential American dream meme it's no wonder some leaders are going to enforce it (especially if they are hungry, if they are foolish).

It works for some, but not for everyone. And not for their entire life.

Re: Why Startups Are Making the Expensive Switch to Traditional Employment

#47

Post by fancyketchup » Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 5:53 PM UTC

ripter wrote: post #30

paulsutter wrote: post #16

The individual pays the cost. Today Uber drivers get like 80% of the fare. If Uber needed to pay benefits, give vacation time, etc, the pay rate would be much lower. That would all come out of the 80%. Just like how contract programmers bill a higher rate and get no benefits. Calling someone an employee doesn't suddenly create new money. I can't imagine uber drivers would prefer a lower rate of pay, but hey, I guess…

Where are you getting the 80% number? The drivers I talked to have told me it's much lower.

Maybe they were talking about net[1], or maybe they have a large number of short trips? From memory (from talking with drivers), the formula is:

driverDollars = (fareDollars - 1)*0.8

If a driver is mostly taking people one or two blocks, the fares are going to be in the $3-5 range. That means the $1 "safe ride fee" (or whatever it's called) is already 20-30% of the fare, so Uber's total take on short rides is closer to 50%. It's one of the reasons drivers don't like short rides.

[1] edit: By net I mean after driving expenses, not after Uber's take.

Re: Why Startups Are Making the Expensive Switch to Traditional Employment

#48

Post by bmj » Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 5:55 PM UTC

tmm wrote: post #45

bmj wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting this to be the norm across industries? Like, the folks working the registers at Target on Friday night? What about Monday night? Or Wednesday night? How does that differ?

It should be the norm across industries. I don't know if this is done or not in retail, but it is common enough in manufacturing (even in non-union shops). It event has a name; it's called a shift differential, and it can be quite lucrative for the employee. Especially if they can work a normal 40-hour week and pick up a night shift on Saturday or Sunday. That one additional shift, with the shift differential and ove…

This apparently exists on the Federal level in the U.S.:

https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/pay-admi...

Though it sounds like on the Federal level, the employee must work a majority of their hours within a particular time period to qualify:

Night shift differential means the differential paid for work performed when the majority of a prevailing rate employee's regularly scheduled nonovertime hours fall between 3 p.m. and 8 a.m. It is computed as a percentage of the employee's rate of basic pay.

Re: Why Startups Are Making the Expensive Switch to Traditional Employment

#49

Post by bobajeff » Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 6:18 PM UTC

bmj wrote: post #37

bobajeff wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't differ and they should get payed extra. There is a cost to working late which somebody is going to pay no matter what.

Just so we are on the same page...when you say "working late" do you mean "working more than 8 hours on a given day" or "simply working outside of the 9am-5pm timeframe?"

I'm talking crazy inconvenient shifts. That can mean different things depending on the location and job but pretty much Dracula hours and double/triple shifts fall into this.

Re: Why Startups Are Making the Expensive Switch to Traditional Employment

#50

Post by bmohlenhoff » Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 6:25 PM UTC

bmj wrote: post #44

mmagin wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's not entirely irrational that a society might decide that having to work in a way contrary to the natural diurnal cycle deserves higher pay. (Yes, I am suggesting that perhaps our society's obsession with having things like retail stores available 24/7 might not be healthy.)

That's reasonable, but we're talking about more than just 24/7 retail here. Even in the days before the 24 hour grocery store, restaurants and bars were open on Friday and Saturday nights (and most evenings, for that matter), and I don't believe those folks received higher pay. Don't get me wrong, I think the U.S. 24/7 retail economy is bonkers, but I'm not sure it's reasonable to just bless 9-5 as the official time…

Just because something has always worked one way doesn't mean it always will continue to work that way.

If a business is having trouble staffing during certain time periods then it's a pretty clear indicator that they might need to offer more to entice people to work those hours. It seems like a pretty clear example of the free market in action.