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An Ex-Cop's War on Lie Detectors

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Re: An Ex-Cop's War on Lie Detectors

#41

Post by woof »

omginternets wrote: post #33
JamesBarney wrote: post #31

The most despicable use of lie detectors I've ever seen was on the Dr. Phil show. Dr. Phil asked a man who cheated on his wife whether he diddled his kids while he was hooked up to a lie detector. He answered no but obviously a question that is as emotionally charged at that will appear as a lie. This man's relationship with his family, friends and probably any future work relationships were all ruined by a stupid ma…

I hate to say it, but that's what you get for seeking help from a TV psychologist. You're insane if you think a TV show is there to help you.

Or just plain stupid.

Re: An Ex-Cop's War on Lie Detectors

#42

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

omginternets wrote: post #33
JamesBarney wrote: post #31

The most despicable use of lie detectors I've ever seen was on the Dr. Phil show. Dr. Phil asked a man who cheated on his wife whether he diddled his kids while he was hooked up to a lie detector. He answered no but obviously a question that is as emotionally charged at that will appear as a lie. This man's relationship with his family, friends and probably any future work relationships were all ruined by a stupid ma…

I hate to say it, but that's what you get for seeking help from a TV psychologist. You're insane if you think a TV show is there to help you.

He's not a Psychologist or any sort of a doctor at all. Just another modern day Jerry Springer act.

In a real polygraph exam a baseline is established and you review all the questions "before" the test is run so that there is no surprise when they are asked the second time. Even then the nature of the questions can elicit a measurable response.

The best advice I ever got from a polygraph examiner was to never voluntarily take one. Advice given while I was strapped to his machine. Never could be sure if he was being sincere or just manipulating me.

Re: An Ex-Cop's War on Lie Detectors

#43

Post by rl3 »

dewarrn1 wrote: post #38
rl3 wrote: post #32

Since fMRIs are likely the future for this type of thing, this is probably the most disturbing job posting I've ever seen: http://www.acfei.com/forensic_services/jobsearch/job-236170.... - Title: PhD COGNITIVE NEUROPSYCHOLOGISTS Date Posted: 05/03/2012 [...] [...] seeking contract physiologists to provide technical expertise in central nervous system (CNS) studies related to credibility assessment. [...] Candidates w…

There are already commercial operations using (or claiming to use) fMRI for lie detection [0]. I can understand the potential appeal of similar positions for applicants — there's a scarcity of academic jobs for even highly skilled cognitive neuroscience PhDs. As I've posted elsewhere in these comments, the best available evidence suggests that fMRI is no more useful than polygraph for lie detection. Unfortunately, th…

I wouldn't be so quick to discount the technology's potential. While the commercial operation you cited is probably dubious at best, and while it may be true that the current state of the technology is as unreliable as you say for the purposes of credibility assessment, I still believe the future of fMRI research holds incredible potential.

Keep in mind that as far back as 2011, researchers succeeded in reconstructing images from the visual cortex[0].

Moreover, the intelligence community has far more resources and motivation to perfect such a technology. It's possible they may already have advanced well beyond what's currently known today. If not, then they certainly will in the future, provided the technology continues to hold its promise.

[0] http://news.berkeley.edu/2011/09/22/brain-movies/

Re: An Ex-Cop's War on Lie Detectors

#44

Post by Retric »

rl3 wrote: post #43
dewarrn1 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are already commercial operations using (or claiming to use) fMRI for lie detection [0]. I can understand the potential appeal of similar positions for applicants — there's a scarcity of academic jobs for even highly skilled cognitive neuroscience PhDs. As I've posted elsewhere in these comments, the best available evidence suggests that fMRI is no more useful than polygraph for lie detection. Unfortunately, th…

I wouldn't be so quick to discount the technology's potential. While the commercial operation you cited is probably dubious at best, and while it may be true that the current state of the technology is as unreliable as you say for the purposes of credibility assessment, I still believe the future of fMRI research holds incredible potential. Keep in mind that as far back as 2011, researchers succeeded in reconstructin…

That study is likely closer to BS than you might think. http://www.wired.com/2009/09/fmrisalmon/

Re: An Ex-Cop's War on Lie Detectors

#45

Post by dewarrn1 »

rl3 wrote: post #43
dewarrn1 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are already commercial operations using (or claiming to use) fMRI for lie detection [0]. I can understand the potential appeal of similar positions for applicants — there's a scarcity of academic jobs for even highly skilled cognitive neuroscience PhDs. As I've posted elsewhere in these comments, the best available evidence suggests that fMRI is no more useful than polygraph for lie detection. Unfortunately, th…

I wouldn't be so quick to discount the technology's potential. While the commercial operation you cited is probably dubious at best, and while it may be true that the current state of the technology is as unreliable as you say for the purposes of credibility assessment, I still believe the future of fMRI research holds incredible potential. Keep in mind that as far back as 2011, researchers succeeded in reconstructin…

I wouldn't be in cognitive neuroscience if I thought our methods held no promise, but there's a vast gap between reconstructing images from visual cortex responses and accurately determining whether a person is lying. Farah et al. [0] recently summarized the best available evidence and concluded as follows (emphasis mine):

"... different policies should be considered for different applications of fMRI-based lie detection. We do not join calls to ban fMRI-based lie detection across the board. Despite the enormous shortcomings of the current evidence ... we suggest that restrictions should be proportional to the outcomes and principles at stake. Risk reduction in dating calls for different standards of certainty and different protections of individual rights than the interrogation of terrorist suspects."

[0] http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v15/n2/abs/nrn3665.html

Re: An Ex-Cop's War on Lie Detectors

#46

Post by mikeash »

DugFin wrote: post #18
mikeash wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I see the difference. I also don't see how it applies here. "Otherwise wouldn't have committed" is key. The guy did this stuff routinely, even advertised it. This isn't a crime he otherwise wouldn't have committed. It just shouldn't be illegal at all.

"Coercion" is specifically the use of threats. "Inducement" is a broader category that includes other methods like begging, badgering, and wheedling.

So offering someone a million dollars to commit a crime would qualify as inducement, but not coercion? Makes sense.

Re: An Ex-Cop's War on Lie Detectors

#47

Post by irishcoffee »

omginternets wrote: post #33
JamesBarney wrote: post #31

The most despicable use of lie detectors I've ever seen was on the Dr. Phil show. Dr. Phil asked a man who cheated on his wife whether he diddled his kids while he was hooked up to a lie detector. He answered no but obviously a question that is as emotionally charged at that will appear as a lie. This man's relationship with his family, friends and probably any future work relationships were all ruined by a stupid ma…

I hate to say it, but that's what you get for seeking help from a TV psychologist. You're insane if you think a TV show is there to help you.

Victim-blaming is cool, sometimes? Just not when its a PC issue.

What the actual fuck?

Re: An Ex-Cop's War on Lie Detectors

#48

Post by differentView »

omginternets wrote: post #33
JamesBarney wrote: post #31

The most despicable use of lie detectors I've ever seen was on the Dr. Phil show. Dr. Phil asked a man who cheated on his wife whether he diddled his kids while he was hooked up to a lie detector. He answered no but obviously a question that is as emotionally charged at that will appear as a lie. This man's relationship with his family, friends and probably any future work relationships were all ruined by a stupid ma…

I hate to say it, but that's what you get for seeking help from a TV psychologist. You're insane if you think a TV show is there to help you.

Injustice against the ignorant or less intelligent is still injustice.

Re: An Ex-Cop's War on Lie Detectors

#49

Post by rl3 »

dewarrn1 wrote: post #45
rl3 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't be so quick to discount the technology's potential. While the commercial operation you cited is probably dubious at best, and while it may be true that the current state of the technology is as unreliable as you say for the purposes of credibility assessment, I still believe the future of fMRI research holds incredible potential. Keep in mind that as far back as 2011, researchers succeeded in reconstructin…

I wouldn't be in cognitive neuroscience if I thought our methods held no promise, but there's a vast gap between reconstructing images from visual cortex responses and accurately determining whether a person is lying. Farah et al. [0] recently summarized the best available evidence and concluded as follows (emphasis mine): "... different policies should be considered for different applications of fMRI-based lie detec…

My apologies, I didn't check your profile prior to replying and thus was unaware this was actually your field. Good to know. :)

On that note, aside from your assessment almost certainly being far more accurate than my own, I would say yours is largely more desirable from a societal point of view. Even if the technology advances at a most glacial pace, society may still not be properly prepared for the implications upon its arrival. The slower the better, perhaps.

Re: An Ex-Cop's War on Lie Detectors

#50

Post by Sideloader »

It seems they busted Williams based on the bogus stories provided by the DHS guy and the deputy sheriff used to set him up. Both "admitted" they broke the law and Williams, knowing this, continued to help them. Had he turned them away could this have turned out differently I wonder?

Personally, I think polygraphs whether used as lie detectors or "personality tests" should be illegal and have no place in a modern society except perhaps in a museum.

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