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Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

paulgraham.com

391–400 of 655 posts

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#391

Hm, an article from pg I don't really agree with (even if I am benefiting from EU's open labor market). There are plenty of 'exceptional' programmers out there with not exceptional salaries. Anybody is free to hire one. There are a couple of problems though: - they're hard to identify - they might be exceptional in one situation and mediocre in another situation. The fact you are doing great at company X and task Y d…

> You could even pay only $500k/y to these excellent guys but no startup does that because they're not sure

In some cases, equity does provide this level of pay. The problem is there is no way to know which startup will get to 100x it's current value, and which one will flame out.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#392
post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Labor can be seen as a scarce resource. If a US developer want to maximize profit he needs to be as scarce as possible. PG and startup employers are in the reverse situation: they need to commoditize labor as much as possible to maximize their profit (labor can be 80% of the fixed expenses in a IT business). A developer residing outside US needs to support PG at first so he has access to bigger profit, but once he's…

> Labor can be seen as a scarce resource. You could, but that's a really limited version of economics that misses the fact that it's not a zero-sum game.

Makes sense, but can you think of an example about how a software developer would benefit for being a commodity worker?

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#393
post #383
post #327

All: much of this thread is of low quality, below the standard that Hacker News discussion should adhere to, because it doesn't engage with what pg's essay actually says. It merely uses it as a trigger point for passions about other things, like H1Bs and Infosys. In other words it goes on a generic tangent, and generic tangents are the vectors we most need to avoid if we want discussions that are substantive instead…

If the comment quality has eroded, is that because the standards are too lax (in which adding a new rule will theoretically fix it), or is it because of an Eternal September-type issue? If it's an Eternal September issue, then you have an enforcement problem: the upvote/downvote system is democratic, so the community would be unable to police itself against the new rule. The obvious solution would be to have people "…

Strict moderation has managed to make a few subreddits decent to read, and I don't see much resentment there. Usually it's greatly appreciated. It wouldn't work if all subreddits were that way though, I could easily see some sort of resentment building up in that case.

Self-policing, in comparison, will always lead to eternal september above some threshold of user churn. That said, HN has weathered growth reasonably well. If nothing else, the median level of discourse on HN has not gotten much worse than it was years ago. But the mean level of discourse has probably gone down. Just my impressions, I have nothing to back this up of course.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From reading this: http://www.uscis.gov/eir/visa-guide/o-1a-extraordinary-abili... It seems like you need 3 of the 8: 1,2, and 3 seem hard to do 4 might not be too hard 5 requires a letter from the company ceo/evidence that you are actually doing something exceptional/useful 6 would be hard 7 is a letter requirement saying that your position is critical, I assume if you are an exceptional programmer it should be easy…

7 is not satisfied by a letter from any company CEO. The person writing the letter has to be a distinguished individual in their own capacity. A startup CEO, irrespective of potential, is a nobody. Tim Cook writing the letter means something. Also 1 letter doesn't suffice. O-1 applications typically require 7-8 such letters from distinguished individuals ~not directly related to your field~. At a minimum 3 or 4 are n…

It's interesting that the bar is so high for engineers yet seemingly much lower for musicians, models and businesspeople. Perhaps the solution is to equalize that discrepancy. Or perhaps the bar is much lower in the NYC area for those 3 fields and it isn't evenly applied everywhere.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#395
post #89

I'm new to HN, and would consider my self a competent developer. How does a competent developer become an exceptional one?

Why do you want to become an exceptional one? I'm going to give you an alternative answer. There is a hard limit on our personal abilities. There comes a point where a lead developer matures by bringing on people onto their team who are better at X. I really like this comment from an AskHN from jlcfly several weeks ago. I hope most of us embrace this philosophy as the reality is programming as an art is much more imp…

"There is a hard limit on our personal abilities."

Reading this makes me think of fixed vs growth mindset. Also, I feel that the 'hard limit' is way beyond the 'exceptional' line. So anyone can work and become exceptional. I feel like the 'hard limit' applies if you want to be #1 or something not the .01%.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#397

Let's put an exemple of what PG is saying: Ellon Musk Ellon Musk is from South Africa, he was not born in America. He has created an enormous amount of wealth in the US. It is as simple as the US won't have self landing space rockets today without this man. Tesla would be bankrupt today, like Fisker. It seems clear to me after reading comments here that Americans feel entitled to the position of world rulers they enj…

I get the same feeling reading the comments in this thread. I can see why your comment would get down-voted. Most ppl in this thread do not want to hear the real fact that they are no different than the rest of the labour force. But because they grew up with an entitled expectation they cannot even imagine that someone out there can even be marginally talented as them.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder where do you get your data for "hire someone from India for half the cost". Of all the facts thrown around - this is easily verifiable - http://www.h1bwage.com/index.php If you ignore those employed on hourly basis, a majority of people on H1B are paid quite well. Apart from salary and benefits - add Visa processing fees for their Kids and Spouse as well (which can easily amount to > 30k+) I think people und…

I'm a dev manager at a prominent employer of software engineers and I did a search for my company at your link. I can't speak for other employers, but it appears that salaries for H1-Bs are ~25% lower than what I know Americans to be making at those same job titles. Half is almost certainly an exaggeration, but to deny that there's an H1-B discount is equally disingenuous. On the topic of the essay, I worry that Paul…

> What I've seen among H1-Bs is a far higher percentage of people who basically hate their job, but do it because it allowed them to come to the US and afford a comfortable lifestyle for their families. I don't blame them for that, but I also don't think that it makes them particularly good developers.

Most people from China, India, etc who immigrate to the U.S., Canada, and Australia/NZ are, in my observational experience, primarily focused on whatever aids the immigration process from an early age, often prompted by their parents. Their secondary focus is the backup plan of rising in the ranks of business, government, or academia in their home country. There is a significant minority of people whose primary focus is on the hierarchy at home, and choosing immigration as a secondary concern happens later on in life, often after marriage, perhaps to someone of the first group. For both groups of people, though, an interest in something geeky like technology, programming, gaming, or whatever comes a distant third. People in China who develop such consuming interests outside of work or forgo higher status jobs to do more interesting work will almost certainly miss out on some crucial step in the arduous immigration process. And of course you won't see many Chinese who totally forgo saving for a car, apartment, spouse, and child to spend all of their time on a geeky interest because their parents simply wouldn't allow it in the one-child culture here.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

7 is not satisfied by a letter from any company CEO. The person writing the letter has to be a distinguished individual in their own capacity. A startup CEO, irrespective of potential, is a nobody. Tim Cook writing the letter means something. Also 1 letter doesn't suffice. O-1 applications typically require 7-8 such letters from distinguished individuals ~not directly related to your field~. At a minimum 3 or 4 are n…

It's interesting that the bar is so high for engineers yet seemingly much lower for musicians, models and businesspeople. Perhaps the solution is to equalize that discrepancy. Or perhaps the bar is much lower in the NYC area for those 3 fields and it isn't evenly applied everywhere.

It is simply because the contribution of a musician, a model, and an athlete is more easily understood by peers in other fields. The value of a 10X engineer is not that well understood by "outsiders" and in many instances by "insiders" either.

Most folks think developers are interchangeable cogs in a machine. They don't think the same of musicians or models or athletes. This is exacerbated by the body shoppers and overseas outsources who indeed consider their developers as mere warm bodies or "resources", and who indeed abuse the H-1B visas. Startups are the losers.

The O-1 visa was introduced before the era of startups and wasn't really geared towards the use case of a startup, i.e., a good developer slogging away in a basement to make the next Google.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#400
post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much time and risk is doing it this way worth? I will argue that the presented approach is the "right thing" (reap what you sow) and increasing the search space is the "wrong thing" (why should US companies get more than their 5% of programming talent?). I don't want US companies to have more talent than the US population can produce. I actually consider their requests stealing. It's not theirs to take. If they c…

You touch on why I don't like increased immigration, which is the stealing aspect. The problem is you take prospective entrepreneurs and great developers from other nations and slave them to US companies at threat of deportation. It is hard to be anything but a wage slave in that environment, which is exactly what companies want, and while the outside developers might have a grass is greener effect going on, is reall…

Perhaps you feel the same way about labor movement within the US? Have you ever moved from one county, or one US state to another for educational or career opportunities? If someone was to move from Virginia to California, would that be a case of California 'stealing'from Virginia? I think it is, in the mechanical sense of virginia loses talent and taxes, and California gains it: surely what matters though, is that the right of humans to engage in the 'pursuit of happiness' should outweigh the right of a state (including nation states) to restrict such movement.

If you accept that idea, you can still argue that the obligations of a nation state are to promote the wellbeing of its own citizens above that of non citizens, but we shouldn't pretend that the barriers we put up are some noble effort to prevent 'stealing' from poor countries: people own the right to their lives and labor, not their state or government of origin.

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