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"Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

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Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what a mailing list is. What you are describing is an email message with multiple recipients, not a mailing list. Mailing lists don't include the email addresses of all of the recipients in the distributed messages To or CC fields, and the From and Reply-to is the address of the mailing list, never a list of all users on the mailing list. Mailing lists are centrally managed, and have a "reflector" or centr…

What you're describing is a particular mailing list configuration (one often seen today); not what mailing lists are . Traditional mailing lists (such as ones created by a vanilla install of GNU Mailman) do not work they way you describe. They work like this: 1. You send a message to a mailing list address. This address belongs to a software agent which sends the message to everyone. Your From: header is clearly pres…

What you describe certainly used to be common, but it's not anymore. You didn't say why the old style is better.

I find it frustrating for a mailing list because invariably a long thread is going to have missing messages. In the context of a mailing list the default behavior should be to reply to the list and setting the Reply-To takes care of that nicely.

Btw, the "because I've been doing it for n years" argument gets less effective as n increases. Ok, it's probably a bell curve but it peaks long before 25.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#392
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to parlay - This page has not been edited in over 3 years and says Varnish does not have full ESI support: https://www.varnish-cache.org/trac/wiki/ESIfeatures Perhaps you missed it, or perhaps this anecdote took place prior to this page's posting. In either case, seems it was a misunderstanding - which goes back to my first comment about a reported bug is not always a real bug just because one (or a few) users b…

There is zero mention in varnish documentation of how ESI and forced cache invalidation occur. ( because it simply doesn't support it ) That was and is my point, and is not addressed on that page or anywhere else. I realize that would require more extensive changes to support; my only point is that I wanted to use ESI specifically in relation to forced invalidation. I reported the bug quite clearly, and the main dev…

ESI is not a very well designed protocol, and cache invalidation is hard. You could look at Ledge[1] which has an aim of supporting the cache use cases for ESI fragements.

[1] https://github.com/pintsized/ledge

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what a mailing list is. What you are describing is an email message with multiple recipients, not a mailing list. Mailing lists don't include the email addresses of all of the recipients in the distributed messages To or CC fields, and the From and Reply-to is the address of the mailing list, never a list of all users on the mailing list. Mailing lists are centrally managed, and have a "reflector" or centr…

What you're describing is a particular mailing list configuration (one often seen today); not what mailing lists are . Traditional mailing lists (such as ones created by a vanilla install of GNU Mailman) do not work they way you describe. They work like this: 1. You send a message to a mailing list address. This address belongs to a software agent which sends the message to everyone. Your From: header is clearly pres…

>What you're describing is a particular mailing list configuration (one often seen today); not what mailing lists are.

So are you! Your original point hinges entirely on having many non-centralized posts and counting them as part of the list.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#394
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to parlay - This page has not been edited in over 3 years and says Varnish does not have full ESI support: https://www.varnish-cache.org/trac/wiki/ESIfeatures Perhaps you missed it, or perhaps this anecdote took place prior to this page's posting. In either case, seems it was a misunderstanding - which goes back to my first comment about a reported bug is not always a real bug just because one (or a few) users b…

There is zero mention in varnish documentation of how ESI and forced cache invalidation occur. ( because it simply doesn't support it ) That was and is my point, and is not addressed on that page or anywhere else. I realize that would require more extensive changes to support; my only point is that I wanted to use ESI specifically in relation to forced invalidation. I reported the bug quite clearly, and the main dev…

Well, if you didn't like their denying your improvement, you could always make a fork, that's the beauty of the open source.

It is usually advised to people who manage open source projects to stay focused on their vision, and not accept random improvements that do not help towards their self-imposed goal.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#395
post #320

I think this is an important point for people to accept, acknowledge, and keep in mind as a reason to strive harder to be open and accepting to people, especially those you don't agree with. I got a bunch of attacks from members of the open source community, due to developing my XML parser. ( Grant McLean and others ) I also got attacked by Poul-Henning Kamp, and then threatened that he would "shame" me for pointing…

After doing some research on "I also got attacked by PHK" I did some research and found this: - you sent 2 e-mails to the Varnish-misc mailing list in Feb 2011 about the ESI-related bug you found ( https://www.varnish-cache.org/lists/pipermail/varnish-misc/2... https://www.varnish-cache.org/lists/pipermail/varnish-misc/2... ), which then remained unanswered - but then you also tried to "help" another user in an unrel…

Why are you putting help and suggestions in quotes? What's wrong with a jump table?

There's no excuse for the language in that post.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with changing Reply-To?

You mean, what is wrong with setting Reply-To. Reply-To is a special header that is normally not present. It has a valid use case (what it is designed for). It's used when someone composes a message on behalf of someone else (like a secretary on behalf of the boss). It says that another person is the real author; please reply directly to that person. When it's added by a mailing list robot, it wrecks the traditional…

Meh...

"'Reply-To' Munging Considered Harmful" is twelve years old, and I don't think the list of mail clients containing "reply to list" includes any of my favorites - much less making it the default, as it should be, since at least on the mailing list I manage, it's an extremely niche case to want to reply to someone privately.

And if you do so, you run the risk of the recipient not noticing the To header and thus getting confused about whether the message was private or not - especially in the many modern clients that use a linear rather than hierarchal view of threads, where you'd end up with a "conversation" randomly interspersing private and public parts. Much better to just compose a separate email.

> Unfortunately, "reply to list" implementations are still not kind to non-subscribers. The feature assumes the subscribe-only style of mailing list. (What is needed is a list header by which the re-mailing robot can tag the message as being from a non-subscriber, so the mail client can know to keep that person in the loop.)

Allowing non-subscriber threads using "reply to all" is a fundamentally limiting feature, though.

- The most important point: if you're not CCed by someone else, you have to start a new thread; if you are browsing archives, you can't just 'forge' a reply to a message you didn't receive, or at least I haven't used a client that lets you do this. And you should be browsing archives, because the alternative is asking questions without knowing if 10 people have asked the same thing recently. If you are CCed, you only get replies strictly hierarchally located under yours; you can't really join the discussion as a whole.

A better system would allow you to join a thread at any point and start to receive followups sent anywhere in that thread (but only that thread).

- In lieu of such a header currently, or in case of clients which don't support it, if someone does reply to the list, you will silently be cut out of the loop.

- There's no way to stop receiving reply-alls. Not the end of the world, since even Gmail lets you mute conversations, but it's more clunky than necessary.

In my ideal system, all mail would be forwarded through the robot so you're cut out of the loop iff you want to be.

- Not as "fundamental", but there's no guarantee the list in question even has a usable archive browsing interface. (I don't pay enough attention to which interface I'm using to name names, but there seems to be a common archiving UI which does not wrap messages - of course they should be sent wrapped, but in practice I've often seen one-line-per-paragraph messages.)

For the record, my ideal system is somewhat approximated by Discourse, which is a forum, but gives you the option to receive all messages as email and reply via email. However, there are various implementation defects which make me not really want to promote it.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#397
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (p.s. the irony of posting such an offensive post by starring out the u in fuck... does he not see the irony?) Linus is fully capable of writing "fuck", as evidenced by e.g. [1]. If he stars it out, assume it is a stylistic choice for that particular message. > then I don't think I'd ever contribute to the LKML. If you can't handle a message like that, then perhaps it's just as well. Note the context (though I can…

> If you can't handle a message like that, then perhaps it's just as well. Such conduct is not tolerated in workplaces, where people are paid to contribute, why do you consider it acceptable in an environment where people contribute for free?

Well, when the quality problems are severe enough to get someone fired from a workplace...

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does seem like there's an awful lot of energy being expended on stopping 14 year old boys from being assholes. I suspect it's about as likely to work as efforts to stop teenagers from having sex. At least quixotic quests are entertaining from the sidelines.

This post was about grown men, not fourteen-year-olds. Grown men... as in, people who should know better.

Oh of course. But I was responding to a particular comment, so context is important.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#399
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (p.s. the irony of posting such an offensive post by starring out the u in fuck... does he not see the irony?) Linus is fully capable of writing "fuck", as evidenced by e.g. [1]. If he stars it out, assume it is a stylistic choice for that particular message. > then I don't think I'd ever contribute to the LKML. If you can't handle a message like that, then perhaps it's just as well. Note the context (though I can…

> If you can't handle a message like that, then perhaps it's just as well. Such conduct is not tolerated in workplaces, where people are paid to contribute, why do you consider it acceptable in an environment where people contribute for free?

Because, you know, in your workplace, you are in an actual inferiority position. Your boss is the one that says how much are you going to be paid next month (or IF your are going to be paid), or whether you are going to work in a nice project or maintaining a 20 years old codebase. If he bullies you, verbally or otherwise, facing up or quitting might have dire consequences.

On the other hand, in most open source projects you contribute what you want, where you want, and if you don't like the project lead, it takes you as much as closing the browser window to quit.

That said, I don't really know if this is the situation of the people working directly under Linus. ¿Aren't the key kernel developers usually paid by big corporations to work there?

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#400
post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and we're not going to spend any time explaining to you why." "any more time", please. The context should imply this, but some situations require high clarity.

I don't think 'high clarity' requires the use of verbally abusive language.

That is both obviously true and bears no connection to the post you're replying to.
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