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Confirmed: The NSA is Spying on Millions of Americans

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Re: Confirmed: The NSA is Spying on Millions of Americans

#391

Post by belorn »

hereonbusiness wrote: post #194
digitalengineer wrote: post #82

Dutch person here with a little insight what's to come for you guys. Some information about our tiny little country (in Wester Europe, very pro-US) with just 17 million people. Our government listens in on more calls every year than in the whole of the US combined. All our telecommunications providers are forced to have the capability to intercept all traffic (phone and internet). Encrypted data must be stored for an…

I don't really get why governments would want to do most of this, it's mostly just a waste of money if they don't plan to establish a totalitarian regime. I mean, they collect all those phone records, internet records, they know your movement patterns, and now what? What good can you do with it for your citizen ?

Mostly political power. Terrorism/military/police arguments is the short term answer, but the reason so much effort is put in is because politically, surveillance is a very valuable. The two primary uses of raw surveillance data (to my knowledge) is to trade it with other nations, and to give political leaders information about their citizens in order to stay in power.

For trading, he who has most data can get most in exchange for it. Sometimes, it's details about on-going deals between companies, where trading information might mean receiving information so one's national companies get a edge over foreign ones. Diplomats, airplane manufacturers, car manufacturers, oil companies are historical beneficiaries of information acquired by the NSA.

But leaders of nations also want information about their citizens. They need to identify other politically important people, influential groups, or where campaign money should (or not) be invested so that they get elected next election. With surveillance data, you can direct police forces to crack down on people or groups who would otherwise have an effect on election day.

Re: Confirmed: The NSA is Spying on Millions of Americans

#392

Post by e3pi »

silvestrov wrote: post #23
tlrobinson wrote: post #17

I suggest every software developer take a course or two on cryptography and make privacy integral in the products you develop.

Cryptography doesn't help at all when your government will require you by law to provide them with a decrypted dump. That's what they did with Verizon. Verizon could not provide you with privacy no matter how much they wanted.

Google: Deniable Cryptography and Rubberhose(update: Waterboarding) Cryptanalysis

Re: Confirmed: The NSA is Spying on Millions of Americans

#393

Post by [deleted] »

silvestrov wrote: post #200
anemitz wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no expectation of privacy at the service provider level in this case. If Verizon, or any service provider, has access to the unencrypted data or the decryption mechanism, the system is insecure. However, cryptography does help you as an individual user of a service. There's no reason we can't build systems which are provably secure and retain strict end-user data privacy.

There is one reason: the government will make sure there are laws which enables them to require providers to give them decypted dumps. If the provider says "can't do", they will be shut down. In the end the government can force the OS vendors to install keyloggers. The ones who make the law always win.

[deleted]

Re: Confirmed: The NSA is Spying on Millions of Americans

#394

Post by ahallock »

I just want to know who the developers are behind these systems. How much did they sell their souls for? Are they reading Hacker News? I hope it was worth it, assholes.

The NSA, DHS, [INSERT 1984 department here] are just an effect of taxation (and borrowing from the Fed). These things will never go away if we keep funding them and giving sanction to them.

It's also disgusting and sad that we've poured billions into the War on Terror while people suffer everyday from cancer. I don't know anyone personally affected by terrorism, but I know 3 close relatives battling cancer. Which is the real threat?

Re: Confirmed: The NSA is Spying on Millions of Americans

#395

Post by Helpful_Bunny »

walshemj wrote: post #379
graycat wrote: post #353

Gee, let's see: All that NSA 'big data', every phone call, from, to, time, etc. Then we had the wacko Boston bombers. So, apparently the great, all powerful, all seeing, all knowing NSA didn't see those two wackos coming. But, but, but, how could the poor, little NSA be expected to see two, obscure, wacko nutjobs? Well, let's see: The Russians told us over and over that those guys were wackos and dangerous. Told us f…

well woudl you take what the FSB says on face value? I sure the FSB told MI5 that Litvinenko was a "wacko nutjob"

Ahem

Litvinenko was assassinated by Putin for working for MI6, and the assassination was very carefully planned to end up in London to send a very pointed message. He was tasked with "getting nuclear materials out of Russia". Well, he managed that all right...

The more you know.

Seriously: this is well known, look for Telegraph coverage, radiation on the plane ("in his tea" cover - yeah, nice one), Litvinenko's business network connections and so on. Is Putin a nice guy? Nope, but poisoning is his personal signature, and MI6 aren't exactly angels either.

I'm sure I'll pick up more "down votes" from the HN crowd, but hey: I thought you were all wise to info-bubbles?

p.s.

MI5 is the internal Security division for the UK; MI6 is the external Security division for the UK

Helps if you know the difference, and for that matter - it helps if know that the FSB is also the domestic Security division, so wouldn't be contacting MI6 anyhow.

Top marks all around for generally bullshitting there.

Re: Confirmed: The NSA is Spying on Millions of Americans

#396

Post by nkurz »

pnathan wrote: post #283
nkurz wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm American, and don't know if I have any more insight than you do. I think the issue is that both major parties in the US (at least publicly) prioritize security over privacy. Fox doesn't cry out about this because Fox viewers are rarely in uproar about such trade offs. If anything, I'd guess this policy has greater support among mainstream Republicans than Democrats. Privacy issues are viewed in an entirely differ…

> the EFF (source of this article) is considered as an extremely liberal left organization, and hated by many conservatives. Seriously? I've never seen it catch flak for being liberal. I've always tagged it as libertarian and off the spectrum.

I agree that they don't fit in well with the standard American left-right spectrum, and agree that they are closer to libertarian than liberal. But yes, I think they are perceived to be in similar position as the ACLU: somewhere to the left of the left. While in theory both of these organizations might be embraced by conservatives as protecting constitutional rights, in practice both are "liberal causes".

An odd citation, but appropriate considering I'm arguing about perception rather than reality: "The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) is a liberal and libertarian organization which promotes the protection of personal rights on the internet, particularly privacy and free speech. Category: Liberal Organizations"

http://www.conservapedia.com/Electronic_Frontier_Foundation

Re: Confirmed: The NSA is Spying on Millions of Americans

#397

Post by joonix »

graycat wrote: post #353

Gee, let's see: All that NSA 'big data', every phone call, from, to, time, etc. Then we had the wacko Boston bombers. So, apparently the great, all powerful, all seeing, all knowing NSA didn't see those two wackos coming. But, but, but, how could the poor, little NSA be expected to see two, obscure, wacko nutjobs? Well, let's see: The Russians told us over and over that those guys were wackos and dangerous. Told us f…

It's all a giant scam. All this technology requires huge IT contracts for some of the biggest corporations in the country.

It's all kind of a hilariously sad cycle:

1. Energy/resources corps "encourage" the US into war or political involvement/coups to protect their assets (i.e. oil rights in Iran, Iraq, etc. War involves much spending which goes to big contractors)

2. Meddling in the region provokes resentment from locals against US, breeding terrorism (more intelligence spending)

3. Terrorists strike back at US

4. US freaks out about terrorism, ups defense/security/intelligence spending which is outsourced to big contractors.

Re: Confirmed: The NSA is Spying on Millions of Americans

#398

Post by joonix »

gerwitz wrote: post #253
dekz wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can purchase one without your name and address but you can only add money to it using your bank-account. The system tracks all travelers' movements (departure and end points for each leg of every journey), in most cases combined with the traveler's identity. It retains the data for seven years Not to discredit your whole post but is this really the case. You can buy those 1 hour/24 hour/48 hour passes for cash.…

Funny that this thread has become about the Netherlands. I moved to Amsterdam from Seattle last November, and have to say that I feel far less vulnerable here, information-wise. Perhaps if I compared the policies and behaviors of only the national governments, I would remember the US as the land of the free, but I prefer to take all levels of government and corporate power into account.

How can you "feel" information vulnerability? That's kind of a ridiculous concept. Everything you type into your computer could literally be broadcast onto a massive LED screen in a public square on the other side of the planet and you would never "feel" a thing.

Re: Confirmed: The NSA is Spying on Millions of Americans

#399

Post by walshemj »

Helpful_Bunny wrote: post #395
walshemj wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well woudl you take what the FSB says on face value? I sure the FSB told MI5 that Litvinenko was a "wacko nutjob"

Ahem Litvinenko was assassinated by Putin for working for MI6, and the assassination was very carefully planned to end up in London to send a very pointed message. He was tasked with "getting nuclear materials out of Russia". Well, he managed that all right... The more you know. Seriously: this is well known, look for Telegraph coverage, radiation on the plane ("in his tea" cover - yeah, nice one), Litvinenko's busin…

That was a Joke :-) and i was using FSB as its the most commonly know bit of the ex KGB and its the Security Service and SIS not MI5 and MI6.

But the line from Russia was that Litvinenko was a wrongun.

Re: Confirmed: The NSA is Spying on Millions of Americans

#400

Post by walshemj »

betterunix wrote: post #385
walshemj wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes its is it makes for a stronger government and reduces the influenced of extremists holding the country to ransom.

"Yes its is it makes for a stronger government and reduces the influenced of extremists holding the country to ransom." The problem is that there is no real choice here; you have a right-wing party and a slightly more right-wing party, and then a bunch of powerless minor parties. Nobody is holding the country ransom because there is no real disagreement. Occasionally the parties clash over the budget (as they did rec…

Dumping Nuclear power in a hurry to keep the greens on side?

Remind me again how the large German cost line suffers regular tsunamis :-)

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