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What is happening to jobs? Separating AI hype from reality

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Re: What is happening to jobs? Separating AI hype from reality

#391
post #338
post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Elon got overly excited in 2016 Yes. He was before and remains so to this day, but he did so then, too. > I need it to safely drive my family on my daily errands or weekend trips, which I now consider solved. This is probably unwise. As with LLMs, the statistics suggest a spikiness in the intelligence, with it being mostly good but also sometimes still making some very odd mistakes that humans would essentially nev…

The data shows that FSD (supervised) is safer than human alone driving. Given that I value the well-being of my family, FSD (supervised) it is as often as possible. Separately from the data, it is just so nice to hit a button and sit back and relax for the entirety of the drive. The usual HN nits at this point are that the data is unreliable/biased and that the way I’m using it isn’t supervised enough. I’ll admit to…

I urge caution when examining statistics, as even with the best will in the world… well, the Datasaurus dozen was created for good reason: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datasaurus_dozen

Tesla have been claiming the stats show superiority of their AI vs. humans since at least 2016: https://techcrunch.com/2016/07/06/tesla-says-drivers-using-a...

The lesson from the Datasaurus should be to ask detailed questions, e.g.:

• exposure bias: is the AI used more or less in certain conditions, on certain kinds of roads

• sharpshooter: shouldn't need to ask this one of a public company, but given regular headlines: how many crashes happen a few seconds after it switches itself off?

• driver demographics: most severe accidents by humans are due to impairment or being a new driver, is the AI actually better than an experienced-and-not-impaired driver?

• the nature of the failure modes: as a cyclist I've been hit by a car that stopped at a junction and pulled out into me, this was not fun but no serious injury; this is very different to any of the highway speed fatalities.

> Separately from the data, it is just so nice to hit a button and sit back and relax for the entirety of the drive.

No doubt. Myself, this is why I have been happy to live in a city with a good public transport network and use that instead of driving.

> I look forward to the other car companies catching up

My point is that they are in some important senses already ahead. Less optimised for the headline, more optimised for the real dream.

Re: What is happening to jobs? Separating AI hype from reality

#392
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this attitude baffling. Things are allowed to get better more than once! The idea that "yeah, you said technology had improved in the past, and now you're saying it has improved again" is a gotcha just seems incoherent to me.

I think people are, rightly or wrongly, identifying goalpost moving re: coding agents are only just this year working well enough to impact work. I'm reminded of a quote I read last year from one of my favorite writers, Noah Smith: > The debate over whether AI is taking people’s jobs may or may not last forever. If AI takes a lot of people’s jobs, the debate will end because one side will have clearly won. But if AI…

> re: coding agents are only just this year working well enough to impact work

Or, more likely, since software touches every single industry of man, you're seeing AI slowly able to handle different types of work. People in the types of work that early models struggled with are now enabled. The goal post didn't change for the people in each group. It's not one entity.

The last people to say that their work will be impacted are those that work in areas with the most novel ideas/innovation, and/or working on things where libraries/examples don't exist.

For example, I work in test/manufacturing, mostly with robots. The whole industry is proprietary. There are basically no open source libraries/code for this stuff, so claude is still pretty terrible at it, but, with Opus 5, it is able to now do some of the work!

Re: What is happening to jobs? Separating AI hype from reality

#393
post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but also. Right now GenAI content a bad thing, cringe, a sign of low-value or lack of attention to detail. I don't want to play even a free game if I think it was made by someone else prompting an AI, and that's despite liking the output when I do the same for myself. If AI output is normalised and becomes simply "boring" or "mundane", those negatives must have also gone away. After that (assuming there is an "a…

>I don't want to play even a free game if I think it was made by someone else prompting an AI I have bad news for you if you think the video game industry isn't widely embracing generative AI. Companies try not to say it because of the current backlash involved but I truly believe Tim Sweeney isn't wrong[1]. I think in 5 years it will be a quaint idea to be AI-vegan and it'll be similar to how people resisted smartph…

I am aware of its use. The point is: I *am* aware, even if the creator doesn't say so.

5 years is an eternity with the current rate of change of AI. Its development is already turning into an international geopolitical issue, even though the implications for mere task-level economics have yet to settle.

Even if it wasn't, 2031 (ish) happens to be roughly when a lot of long-term exponential growth trends all happen to reach points that suggest the assumptions behind them have to break, like more than 100% of electricity being made by PV etc.; the only thing I am confident of about AI is that even its current trend line on METR were to continue it becomes physically unmeasurable sooner than that. This also means nobody will pay Tim Sweeney so much as a single Zimbabwe Dollar in royalties for games written in the Unreal Engine.

Half the game logic I played on Kongregate back in the heyday of Flash games is now one-to-few shot prompting on Claude even if you don't pay for it, and even if you don't pay for ChatGPT you can get assets at that scale pretty quickly. I know 'cause I've tried. It's just, like every blog post whose headings contain emoji, every time there's a 6-7 word paragraph a little too bombastic about how important something is, every time I read or hear "you're absolutely right" or "delve" or "nuance", and yes hear even when the lips those words pass through happen to be human…

…the way most people prompt these models, I can tell. Most people don't bother to ask it to speak like a posh victorian, or draw poster art like it's the 60s, and they don't check and reject when the shadow on the foreground of the moon base doesn't match the Earth in the sky. And because humans are lazy and greedy, so even if the visual models gets as good as the finest artists and the language models as good as Nobel laureates, we're going to learn the style of whatever the default output of those models is when prompted by lazy and greedy humans. And we'll hate it, because it's a cliché, and we avoid those like the plague.

Re: What is happening to jobs? Separating AI hype from reality

#395
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A challenge with this kind of study is that coding agents (Claude Code, OpenAI Codex) only started working really well in 2026? 5? 4? 3? Heard this one way too many times.

Yep, the goalposts just keep shifting. In reality: they still don't work well, unless you're content with producing low quality work.

Your perspective is one that assumes a single entity is using AI, rather than disparate groups of people working on disparate problem spaces/topics, each with different "intelligence" thresholds for them to say "good enough". The goal post isn't changing, it's that there are multiple problem spaces with completely different, fixed, goalposts.

And even then, within a single group, you'll have multiple thresholds, of "this really helps make my coding more productive" to "I no longer type code, just review" to eventually "I'm no longer employed".

Re: What is happening to jobs? Separating AI hype from reality

#396
post #391
post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The data shows that FSD (supervised) is safer than human alone driving. Given that I value the well-being of my family, FSD (supervised) it is as often as possible. Separately from the data, it is just so nice to hit a button and sit back and relax for the entirety of the drive. The usual HN nits at this point are that the data is unreliable/biased and that the way I’m using it isn’t supervised enough. I’ll admit to…

I urge caution when examining statistics, as even with the best will in the world… well, the Datasaurus dozen was created for good reason: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datasaurus_dozen Tesla have been claiming the stats show superiority of their AI vs. humans since at least 2016: https://techcrunch.com/2016/07/06/tesla-says-drivers-using-a... The lesson from the Datasaurus should be to ask detailed questions, e.g.:…

Good points about the stats. I know the answers to some of those questions, but at some point it's so hard to get apples to apples comparisons for these things. So I did a "paranoid super-supervised" usage of FSD for a year or two to learn its failure modes and get used to its reliability or lack thereof. Then combined with the (allegedly truthful) FSD stats, I came to my own conclusion which is that FSD is ready for my everyday needs. (nit: FSD can change version to version and potentially regress. some temporary paranoia is justified after major changes)

Usable public transport would be nice. It was unusable for various reasons where I used to live (Seattle/Bellevue) and is pretty much non-existent where I currently live (Socal / Orange County), but everything else about the location is perfect for me, so I'm willing to give that up.

> they are in some important senses already ahead. Less optimised for the headline, more optimised for the real dream.

Nice! I look forward to trying them out when they are available and working here. Rivian claims they'll achieve it next year, and one of their form factors (R1S) is perfect for my family so they'll be my next option if things go downhill with my Teslas.

Re: What is happening to jobs? Separating AI hype from reality

#397
post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people are, rightly or wrongly, identifying goalpost moving re: coding agents are only just this year working well enough to impact work. I'm reminded of a quote I read last year from one of my favorite writers, Noah Smith: > The debate over whether AI is taking people’s jobs may or may not last forever. If AI takes a lot of people’s jobs, the debate will end because one side will have clearly won. But if AI…

> re: coding agents are only just this year working well enough to impact work Or, more likely, since software touches every single industry of man, you're seeing AI slowly able to handle different types of work . People in the types of work that early models struggled with are now enabled. The goal post didn't change for the people in each group. It's not one entity. The last people to say that their work will be im…

I don't think we disagree on the capabilities of the latest agents, but my point is that the software industry has already been through multiple rounds of "the [models,agents,bots] only just became good enough to impact work in the last few months," yet this and several other studies have shown that the clankers still haven't taken any jobs. If the November timeline doesn't show an impact, then it must be because we only just got access to Fable and Solus in July. And if the Fable and Solus timeline don't show an impact, then it's because of this other thing that happened where models really took off – the data just needs to catch up.

Everyone has an anecdote about someone being laid off because of AI, and everyone has anxiety about the next model being the big one that will really cause the industry to implode, but there's never any hard labor impact. It's always still coming, still waiting for the next model, next study, next jobs report. As Smith said, people who believe that AI is going to take jobs will never be convinced that it's not coming eventually.

Re: What is happening to jobs? Separating AI hype from reality

#398
post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> re: coding agents are only just this year working well enough to impact work Or, more likely, since software touches every single industry of man, you're seeing AI slowly able to handle different types of work . People in the types of work that early models struggled with are now enabled. The goal post didn't change for the people in each group. It's not one entity. The last people to say that their work will be im…

I don't think we disagree on the capabilities of the latest agents, but my point is that the software industry has already been through multiple rounds of "the [models,agents,bots] only just became good enough to impact work in the last few months," yet this and several other studies have shown that the clankers still haven't taken any jobs. If the November timeline doesn't show an impact, then it must be because we…

> that the software industry

You miss my point. There is no single software industry. There are people solving completely unrelated problems with software. Some of those problem spaces could be services with old models. Some only with new. It's a rise in tide, with little towns completely drowning, and the ones up the hill still safe for now.

A year ago claude could NOT write code for the robot controller we use that was usable. Now it can. The water is now ankle deep for where I am.

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