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Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

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Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#391

Post by randysalami »

isityettime wrote: post #383
delusional wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am very interested in your reading of Close to the Machine. I read it myself a couple of years ago and found it a wonderful telling of the early days of tech, with overtones of the "technology workplace" that were still very true to this day. I did not pick up on any commentary on automation or computerization, outside of the general critique of bureaucratic systems that alienate you from the outcomes of your labor…

It's in the opening chapter, when the narrator talks about her experience working on a software system for AIDS patients and their medical care providers. The critique is not just of bureaucracy per se— the same bureaucracy, institutionally, exists before and after the implementation of the software system. The difference is that the informal judgment of caseworkers is converted from something fuzzy and flexible into…

To your penultimate part, I remember when I was younger, I always wanted to be a software engineer. Those obsessive, dissociative traits I cultivated because they seemed so welcome at the places which young me wanted to work (Google, Facebook mainly). And those places seemed so right (and paid so well). As I got older, I realized there was way more nuance. What I once thought were strictly virtues to be lauded… had more gray than I imagined. I don’t think a lot of people in our field have or will have that wake-up.

And I think this is a big part of the problem. Being a shell of a human does not lend yourself well to empathy and solidifies your ego and that you are “worth” more than others, reinforced with a lucrative salary, praise, and those perks you mention.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#392

Post by inigyou »

QuadmasterXLII wrote: post #379
bluefirebrand wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It definitely seems like having Trump in power suits the rich and powerful tech lobby just fine, that's for sure

Thats’s the trump pitch, that supporting him is defecting in a prisoners dilemma, but from where I stand it looks like he’a shrinking the pie by damaging America through ineptitude faster than he’s increasing the fraction of the pie available to all but his closest cronies.

Well that's the prisoner's dilemma. No matter whether you defect or not, the other guy still does.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#393

Post by QuadmasterXLII »

inigyou wrote: post #392
QuadmasterXLII wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats’s the trump pitch, that supporting him is defecting in a prisoners dilemma, but from where I stand it looks like he’a shrinking the pie by damaging America through ineptitude faster than he’s increasing the fraction of the pie available to all but his closest cronies.

Well that's the prisoner's dilemma. No matter whether you defect or not, the other guy still does.

(((4,4), (0, -10)) ((-10, 0), (-20, -20)))

if you want to sell a product that looks like defect but sucks for everyone, lying and saying “its a prisoners dilemma, don’t be a sucker” is a remarkably effective technique.

Of course you need explosive reactive armor on your car! imagine if you get in a crash and the other bastard has it and you don’t

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#394

Post by HDThoreaun »

vkou wrote: post #378
HDThoreaun wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case it seems to me that LLMs in medicine pretty much are just better for everyone with no real downsides. Im not a doctor but have 2 in my family I speak with regularly and from how they talk about it care is pretty much just unequivocally better now because they dont have to be sitting at the computer taking notes all the time. It removed a huge part of the process that neither patients nor doctors enjoyed.

Are prices going down, as they need to do less work per patient? Or are the providers just pocketing the difference? Given that prices are definitely not going down, I'm not sure how this makes my life any better.

> I'm not sure how this makes my life any better.

Well instead of staring at a computer the whole time now they can actually make eye contact with you. IMO that alone makes my life quite a bit better

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#395

Post by isatty »

nradov wrote: post #374
isatty wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likewise. I basically - will not see a “provider”. A doctor (MD/DO) only please. - will not see a doctor who uses LLM tools (or therapists for that matter) - Make it abundantly clear that if you do then we’re not a match. - Will pay significantly more/go out of my way for for this.

Regardless of whether your preferences are rational or not, you're quite lucky to be able to pick and choose. There is a shortage of clinicians and it's only going to get worse so most patients will have to take whomever they can get, especially if they're not able to wait months for an appointment.

Indeed, I’m definitely in a privileged position.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#396

Post by bitwize »

kennywinker wrote: post #389
tyfon wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> pretty much nobody cares about ML processing for analysis. I work in a bank and a can tell you that the customers absolutely hate ML when it rejects their loan application. Over the pond in the US, I have an impression that the fico score is not exactly popular either, but I have no first hand experience.

People have absolutely hated their loan applications being rejected since before ML was being used anywhere near it. As evidence, let me cite the “computer says no.” sketch from 2004

In 2004, the logic driving such decisions was literally GOFAI: rules engines that fire off responses when certain criteria are met.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#397

Post by MetroWind »

My wife has been visiting an eye doctor several times. The doctor always use ChatGPT to double check (I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt; another way to frame this is the doctor didn't know shit and just used AI for answers).

I'm sure he doesn't think AI is making his job worse.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#398

Post by derekdahmer »

tclancy wrote: post #193
derekdahmer wrote: post #115

I RFTA and the majority of the complaints are about call center metrics and the pressure to ration care. These are real concerns about misuse of metrics, but not AI. The AI empathy thing was a 2024 pilot that was discontinued. FWIW my wife works for Kaiser and finds a lot of value in the the medical LLM tools available to her. She tells me being able to do live translation, summarize notes, and quickly get comprehens…

Just for clarification, is your wife a doctor or a nurse?

Physician Assistant, which is like a RN

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#399

Post by HouseofCardsHOC »

squigz wrote: post #348
adrianN wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think that it is possible to both allow the use of LLM and not mandate them in modern metric driven work places. Either you ban them or you force people to use them for game theoretic reasons: they are slower than their peers and quality of the work is harder to measure than quantity. All you achieve is shifting the blame to the employees if the LLM messes up. Come to think of it, that probably is a highly de…

> All you achieve is shifting the blame to the employees if the LLM messes up. How is this not a good thing for everyone?

[flagged]

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#400

Post by Xeoncross »

jagged-chisel wrote: post #87
Xeoncross wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't imagine why people are looking into alternative healthcare

What alternative?

Are commercial/state hospitals really the only form of healthcare you're aware of?
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