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We've made the world too complicated

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Re: We've made the world too complicated

#391

Post by _nxwj »

pnexk wrote: post #351

TFA’s author notes they’ve watched Adam Curtis’s Hypernormalization. As someone who is vary of his Century of Self documentary, I think it’s worth remembering how deceptive visual mediums can be. It’s not that textual arguments and essays cannot mislead and make muddled arguments… but presentation and style in documentaries/video essays have an immense capability to convince the average viewer of an articulated idea…

Yes I’ve become aware of the fact that documentaries are still mostly audio-visual entertainment masquerading as something more. A lot can be said about the medium as the message and so on, which is why I still value deliberate careful reading and conversation the most. To add on to the complicated world, younger people don’t read much at all, and their reading is becoming shallower thanks to the internet.

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#392

Post by scheeseman486 »

latexr wrote: post #289
XorNot wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know how to make paper? Can you? Is it any good? Do you really understand it then?

You’re stretching the meaning of understanding to ridiculous levels of uselessness. If you’re slapped across the face, do you need to understand physics and biology to know how the movement and speed of a hand interacting with the tissue of your face and interpreted by your brain and nervous system makes it hurt?

Understanding why pain happens is what allowed for anesthesia and modern medicine, which massively improved the quality of life of our species. Did we need to figure out how to do that? Sure, in the same way we needed to figure out how to create fire, or craft tools.

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#393

Post by pixl97 »

latexr wrote: post #289
XorNot wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know how to make paper? Can you? Is it any good? Do you really understand it then?

You’re stretching the meaning of understanding to ridiculous levels of uselessness. If you’re slapped across the face, do you need to understand physics and biology to know how the movement and speed of a hand interacting with the tissue of your face and interpreted by your brain and nervous system makes it hurt?

>do you need to understand physics and biology to know how the movement and speed of a hand interacting wi

In one sense, no because we get this programmed in for free by our ancient biology. But do note that it did not just pop up full formed and took quntillions of complex interactions over eons of time to get to the point it is now. This is why making robots that behave like biological entities is insanely hard, evolution has spent an epic fuckton of compute on the problem already.

Now, if you're building human like robots, then yes, you need to understand all the above.

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#394

Post by abdullahkhalids »

fwipsy wrote: post #360
timacles wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be more precise, the late stage capitalism phase we are in has designed itself around destroying anything that contributes to society. Nothing can exist without making a profit. If there is something that is useful, our system makes sure it will be exploited for maximum profit which will in turn destroy that very things.

That's not true. Capitalism is merely indifferent to things without economic value. If something is monetizable it will be monetized, which can be very harmful in itself, but capitalism does not seek destruction for it's own sake.

Someone who "speaks the truth" without caring about how other people might feel, is rightfully termed an asshole, and generally not considered a good person.

Similarly, when politicians pass laws that maximize a single value while disregarding the harm it does on other consequential values, they are considered bad people.

The world is complex. Systems of decision making must do careful multi-value optimization to be considered good. Single value maximization is evil because it abdicates responsibility.

In the specific case of modern capitalism as-is-implemented, structures like ETFs and bank saving accounts are specifically designed to launder moral responsibility. "I just allocated my capital to the highest return instruments as recommended by my financial advisor. How could I know through all the opaqueness that I was directly enabling child labor and environmental destruction?"

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#395

Post by fwipsy »

mentalgear wrote: post #365
fwipsy wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not true. Capitalism is merely indifferent to things without economic value. If something is monetizable it will be monetized, which can be very harmful in itself, but capitalism does not seek destruction for it's own sake.

Have you meet the military-industrial complex? President/General Eisenhower famously warned us about it becoming a self-serving entity 65 years ago: > On January 17, 1961, in this farewell address, President Dwight Eisenhower warned against the establishment of a "military-industrial complex." https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/president-dwigh... The latest examples are the current war-profiteers in office…

Right. It's destruction for the sake of profit, not (generally) for it's own sake. Different motivation, same outcome.

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#396

Post by ako »

freeopinion wrote: post #386
wolvesechoes wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> am a very devout capitalist. I believe very deeply in contributing to society. I don't think I am that unusual in this respect. I see people acting very capitalistic to operate community gardens with the maximum margins. I see highly trained experts volunteer as educators. I see well-paid doctors and lawyers raking up leaves for their neighbors. I see accountants freelancing to keep the blind center afloat. Charity…

Charity is the only thing that can save us. Tax is just a different take on charity. We all agree to pay into the community chest to provide for a pubic commons. Resistance to progressive tax is resistance to a type of charity. One important difference between charity and tax is who gets to decide on how it is spent. If charity won't save us taxes never will.

Tax is not charity, tax is payment for community products and services. You have things you pay for individually, and things you pay for as a community.

Charity is when you pay for things you dont need yourself, tax is when you pay for things you need being part of a larger group.

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#397

Post by notahacker »

latexr wrote: post #285
onion2k wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a polymath was once doable. Any reasonably intelligent child who can write some poetry, understand basic calculus, and has a working knowledge of chemistry would be heralded as a polymath if you dropped them into the Victorian era. The breadth of human knowledge is just bigger now.

You’re stretching it way too far. Most adults don’t have all those, let alone “reasonably intelligent” children. There were child geniuses before, too.

To be fair, there's an awful lot a not particularly intelligent high school child is taught about biology that Aristotle, who clearly was a genius, didn't when trying to synthesize the existing knowledge of everyone he met and come up with new ideas from his own observations.

It's unlikely Aristotle made the mistake of thinking that because other people generally weren't writing this stuff down that meant the world was an uncomplicated place

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#398

Post by notahacker »

latexr wrote: post #289
XorNot wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know how to make paper? Can you? Is it any good? Do you really understand it then?

You’re stretching the meaning of understanding to ridiculous levels of uselessness. If you’re slapped across the face, do you need to understand physics and biology to know how the movement and speed of a hand interacting with the tissue of your face and interpreted by your brain and nervous system makes it hurt?

We're downthread of someone moaning about the complexity of a world which requires him to understand sidewalks, strangers and rooms he isn't allowed to enter. Doesn't feel like paper is any more intuitive or 'natural' at any level than those, and tbh if I don't have to understand it well enough to understand how it's made, glass-walled skyscrapers really aren't complicated either...

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#399

Post by lanyard-textile »

margalabargala wrote: post #384
lanyard-textile wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

:) I think this very mindset is the one the article resists. How complicated. The best gift you can give yourself is enjoying the simple moments of life, no matter who you are and what your role is. And that's all this is about.

Going about your life without concern for how your actions affect those around you is what some might call selfish :) You feel that's the best give you can give yourself. Others might feel the best gift they can give themselves, is a community. Perhaps a war criminal might find equal personal fulfillment in seeing a wildflower as a doctor. But there's more than one ingredient in a happy life :)

It is no fun applying a well meaning thought to an obviously unintended subject.

A war criminal, really! You are making this... complicated ;)

1. There is an evil at both extremes -- I do not advocate for either.

2. Life's simple moments include the ones that build up your communities.

Re: We've made the world too complicated

#400

Post by nine_k »

pyrale wrote: post #329
hariseldom wrote: post #305

> I used to want to do many things. Make great art, build great machines, solve important issues. Maybe our greatest gift to the world is to do as little as possible. To look at the birds, feel the wind and the water in our own hands, and ... nothing more. Eat when we are hungry, laugh when we are happy, cry when we are empty. And maybe that is the greatest gift to ourselves as well. This is not always true, it depen…

I guess the issue is that, on average, our society looks more like Phillip Morris or Meta than it looks like a school or an hospital. And, most of all, the people our society promotes to steer itself tend to be the kind that thrives at Meta rather than in a school.

There are always more people who might use your help, or at least your kind word. Most often they are right next to you.

Maybe producing even more things is not what's worth doing. But doing more than just passively watch the world pass by is quite definitely a worthy goal. (If one cares about reducing the suffering of sentient beings, that is. If one doesn't, one can just sit and strive not to do anything.)

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