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Tell HN: Docker pull fails in Spain due to football Cloudflare block

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Re: Tell HN: Docker pull fails in Spain due to football Cloudflare block

#391

Post by cryptonym »

drob518 wrote: post #381
cryptonym wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are blocking unlawful? I don't think so. Their country their rules. Business-wise it's risky to deliver your service from IPs that also serves dirty content. Technical solutions exists, even if you want to stay on Cloudflare.

But it also highlights the fact that the idea of blocking “dirty IPs” is at best a blunt instrument. Every ISP has abusers. Some are worse than others at self-policing their customers. Cloudflare is reputable and better than most. Given the huge breadth of sites sitting behind Cloudflare, it’s crazy, IMO, to block all of Cloudflare.

It does not block all of cloudflare, it blocks their shared IPs. If you are doing serious business you may not want to do it on IPs that are also used for shady content. IP reputation is a well known strategy, used by emails and other firewalls.

Re: Tell HN: Docker pull fails in Spain due to football Cloudflare block

#392

Post by isodev »

gempir wrote: post #376
isodev wrote: post #363

Very good example as to why using a single, centralised proxy globally by all services is a bad idea. Docker would never have a reason to block anything if they were simply running their own. For everyone else, small and big, this is the weekly reminder to not use Cloudflare for user-facing access to anything.

The amount of traffic that must go through the docker hub, must be insane, the images go into the gigabytes and everyone expects it to be super fast. Cloudflare is one of the few companies who can handle that for relatively cheap, Docker could not just "run their own" and have it even be compareable.

One of few doesn’t mean they’re the only ones. Imagine how much easier it would be for CDNs to have revenue if they didn’t have to battle Cloudflare’s obscenely broad portfolio

Re: Tell HN: Docker pull fails in Spain due to football Cloudflare block

#393

Post by isodev »

stingraycharles wrote: post #380
isodev wrote: post #363

Very good example as to why using a single, centralised proxy globally by all services is a bad idea. Docker would never have a reason to block anything if they were simply running their own. For everyone else, small and big, this is the weekly reminder to not use Cloudflare for user-facing access to anything.

Ah come on surely you’re not blaming Cloudflare for refusing to block individual websites without a court order? And surely you’re not blaming Cloudflare for the decision of the Spanish government to block all of Cloudflare during LaLiga? Docker must be handling absolute massive amounts of traffic on their (free) docker hub, Cloudflare is one of the only companies in the world willing to handle that is able to handle…

I’m blaming everyone else for “just use Cloudflare”. How many times the world needs to learn the lesson about letting corps outgrow their usefulness and become maligned?

There are alternatives and any search engine can lead you to them

Re: Tell HN: Docker pull fails in Spain due to football Cloudflare block

#394

Post by necovek »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #209
necovek wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even that is IMO untrue: "technical solutions" have indeed changed society at large quite significantly; eg. "social media" is one very influential example, "smart phone" is another, "internet" itself, etc.

Aren't you agreeing with me? None of those things changed the underlying social dynamics that humans exhibit but they nonetheless affected widespread social and political change.

We might have different definitions of "social dynamics": to me, it is a marked change when people tune to impress strangers on "social media", vs building their "standing" with peers and neighbours.

Re: Tell HN: Docker pull fails in Spain due to football Cloudflare block

#395

Post by pxc »

forty wrote: post #317
pxc wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cloudflare has not in fact refused to comply with any court orders! The very thing at issue is that LaLiga wants Cloudflare to do censorship on their behalf that Cloudflare, who has no contractual relationship with LaLiga, is not required to do by any legal framework in Spain or the US. Cloudflare literally wasn't even a party to the ruling by which LaLiga has been compelling Spanish ISPs to do the IP-level blocking.…

I'm not sure why it shouldn't be cloudflare job to make sure they don't host illegal content. If my super market keeps distributing illegal goods, even if they remove it after a court order, they will end up having to close the whole market. Either they should police the content they serve themselves or they accept the right holders to do it (which sucks for everyone). Also they certainly willing take all their custo…

https://www.cloudflare.com/trust-hub/reporting-abuse/

Anyone can report illegal content on Cloudflare and Cloudflare will remove it. The pirate streaming sites pop up only in or just before the first few moments of the game, and LaLiga insists they must be removed instantly in order to prevent their losses. So what they actually want is preemptive removal without meaningful human review or anything else that could take 10 minutes.

That involves more than being responsive when someone reports abusive content or dropping bad customers. That requires becoming a censorship machine that preemptively treats all new customers as criminals, and probably having some unaccountable AI drive the censorship process. (That latter seems to be what LaLiga is pushing Fastly to do.)

That's beyond the legal obligations of infrastructure platforms, bad for the reliability of their service, and just a slice of what they'd have to do to rework their architecture to support this kind of preemptive censorship.

Re: Tell HN: Docker pull fails in Spain due to football Cloudflare block

#396

Post by sigbottle »

dingnuts wrote: post #222
jazzyjackson wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is teleological thinking. it's not necessarily the case that things get better over time.

there's a lot of evidence things do generally get better over time, though. Jon Haidt and his ilk... I forget all involved... have done research into it obviously it can be bumpy and maybe there's a Great Filter or you happen to live during a bad period but life is certainly much longer and less brutal than it was for 99.9% of human history

Things have mostly gotten better through centralization and unification, which is certainly a way of getting better.

Re: Tell HN: Docker pull fails in Spain due to football Cloudflare block

#397

Post by otterley »

willdr wrote: post #243
otterley wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least the DMCA in the U.S. has guardrails: not just anyone can send a takedown demand for everything. The requester has identify the works and declare under penalty of perjury that they are operating on the behalf of the owner. I imagine the equivalent EU law has similar requirements. CloudFlare uses legal chicanery to try to subvert the DMCA by claiming that because they’re not the origin server, they’re not subj…

Nobody cares about the DMCA guardrails and they are never meaningfully enforced. Case in point, Anthropic DMCAing thousands of repositories that simply mentioned the word "claude".

Can you explain how your example supports your conclusion? I don't follow.

Re: Tell HN: Docker pull fails in Spain due to football Cloudflare block

#398

Post by hiccuphippo »

Cpoll wrote: post #13
mathfailure wrote: post #11

Cloudflare is cancer. And the tumor is now too big.

You've got it backwards. Spain's ISPs are blocking Cloudflare and other CDNs because of LaLiga/football piracy. CloudFlare isn't doing anything here.

Por que no los dos?

Both blanked IP blocking and creating single points of failure are bad.

Re: Tell HN: Docker pull fails in Spain due to football Cloudflare block

#399

Post by hiccuphippo »

otterley wrote: post #72
Cpoll wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've got it backwards. Spain's ISPs are blocking Cloudflare and other CDNs because of LaLiga/football piracy. CloudFlare isn't doing anything here.

I know this is an unpopular opinion among freedom maximalists, but: It’s precisely because CloudFlare isn’t responding like other CDNs to reasonable demands to cut off pirate origin sites that this mess exists. If they reacted quickly to remove configurations that are obviously facilitating copyright infringement, Spain wouldn’t resort to full scale ASN blocking. How do we know it’s CloudFlare? Because other CDNs lik…

Sounds like the solution is for legitimate services to move away from Cloudflare. They contribute to the single point of failure by remaining their customers.

Re: Tell HN: Docker pull fails in Spain due to football Cloudflare block

#400

Post by sigbottle »

miki123211 wrote: post #280
the_gipsy wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's ridiculous and wrong what LaLiga does. But it's also a weakeup call to consider ditching cloudflare's centralization.

The only reason this happens is because Cloudflare's centralization makes precise censorship impossible. That's bad in this particular case (as it results in over-broad censorship), but good in general, as it makes censorship harder. Without Cloudflare, you can censor whatever you want. If you have the support of an (undemocratic) government on your side, you can even DeDoS them, making sure that information critical…

That's actually an interesting argument for centralization, when it comes to interoperability concerns. I have never thought about it.

Of course, the standard response against centralization is that the centralized entity can sneak backdoors and turn at the drop of a hat.

Maybe something like a signal-like model might be good, in that regard, as opposed to mesh networks.

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