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A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)

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Re: A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)

#391

Post by ted_dunning »

grep_name wrote: post #359
jwrallie wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You will quickly learn the first one because if you keep eating the delicious side dishes you will be only left with large amounts of bland rice to eat last.

I've always thought I'd like to visit Japan someday, but have always been worried about the cultural significance and omnipresence of white rice. Like, I can see how not eating rice would seem boorish (like you only want to eat the more expensive proteins, don't understand the purpose of a palate cleanser, etc), but living with type 1 diabetes I have not eaten white rice in literal years. Every single time I do, I re…

Explain your needs and they will be incredibly gracious.

They will also be sad for you to miss the rice.

Re: A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)

#392

Post by bigstrat2003 »

kibwen wrote: post #153
gavmor wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? You hold the fork with your dominant hand, and cut with your non-dominant hand?

Yes. For the record, Americans also don't wear their shoes indoors, except for maybe some people in extremely dry climates.

Plenty of Americans wear their shoes indoors.

Re: A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)

#393

Post by bigstrat2003 »

untrust wrote: post #312
rdiddly wrote: post #295

OK, I was probably never going to visit Japan, and this convinced me the rest of the way.

Technically in the USA: It is impolite to begin eating without first washing your hands, rest your elbows on the table, chew with your mouth open, double dip in shared dishes, leave your napkin on the table, and also all sorts of rules about which spoon to use when. None of these rules are followed by your average American and nobody really cares, I imagine it's similar to these.

I would certainly hope most people are not double dipping in shared dishes. That shit is gross, yo.

Re: A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)

#394

Post by thaumasiotes »

adrian_b wrote: post #389
thaumasiotes wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The "f" pronunciation has been retained only before "u", like in Fuji. Well, there is a convention that syllables starting with h- are spelled with f- (in foreign transcription) if the following vowel is -u. There's not much difference in the pronunciation itself; maybe there was more of one when the spelling convention was set.

At least in the recent past and probably also today in some Japanese dialects, the "f" pronunciation must have been retained before "u". For example, in some Okinawan dialects the "f" pronunciation has been retained before all vowels. Because of this, after Okinawa was occupied by Japan in the last quarter of the 19th century, the Japanese used "fu" before vowels, to transcribe the Okinawan pronunciation. For instanc…

> At least in the recent past and probably also today in some Japanese dialects, the "f" pronunciation must have been retained before "u".

I wasn't disputing that as to the recent past.

I searched up some Japanese-language videos on youtube as a followup, and I can report:

A noticeable "f" is present before "u" in many cases. (I found it in the words "tofu" and "daifuku", plus the obvious English loanwords "soft", "firm", and "waffuru". My best guess as to the vowel following "f" is "u" for "soft" and "a" for "firm".)

But, not consistently. You don't have to pronounce the syllable that way. (Observed also in "tofu" and "daifuku".)

The nature of my low-effort search precludes any statements about dialectal variation. I wouldn't want to claim that the syllable onsets are "clearly different" to modern speakers today. But (1) the option to have an "f" is still present in -u syllables, and (2) the existence of common loanwords where the foreign sound is recognized is, if anything, going to serve to strengthen awareness of the hypothetical difference.

Re: A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)

#395

Post by adrian_b »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #394
adrian_b wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in the recent past and probably also today in some Japanese dialects, the "f" pronunciation must have been retained before "u". For example, in some Okinawan dialects the "f" pronunciation has been retained before all vowels. Because of this, after Okinawa was occupied by Japan in the last quarter of the 19th century, the Japanese used "fu" before vowels, to transcribe the Okinawan pronunciation. For instanc…

> At least in the recent past and probably also today in some Japanese dialects, the "f" pronunciation must have been retained before "u". I wasn't disputing that as to the recent past. I searched up some Japanese-language videos on youtube as a followup, and I can report: A noticeable "f" is present before "u" in many cases. (I found it in the words "tofu" and "daifuku", plus the obvious English loanwords "soft", "f…

I agree with you.

I was explaining the historical pronunciation, because without knowing it, for the English speakers there are many puzzling things related to the syllables starting with "h", e.g. why "hashi" is voiced to "-bashi", why hiragana "huji" is transcribed to Latin "Fuji", why the particle "wa" is written "ha" in hiragana, why the capital city of Okinawa, which is now written "Naha" (because now the traditional Okinawan pronunciation does not matter any more) can be found in older texts written as "Nafua", why "Yawara" (the original native name of what is now called "jiu-jitsu", through translation into Sino-Japanese) was written in hiragana as "yahara" in the old books, and so on.

As you have mentioned, modern Japanese frequently uses "fu" before vowels or in final position, in transcribing the words borrowed from English or other languages, to mark the consonant "f", which otherwise does not exist in Japanese, and in these borrowed words it is more likely to be pronounced as English "f".

Re: A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)

#396

Post by throwthrowuknow »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #250
throwthrowuknow wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

then it’s a custom or etiquette, not a standard

And the point of etiquette is to signal conformity and social status. I had a friend who came from a working class culture where social aspiration was measured by tiny nuances, like whether someone put milk in their tea before or after pouring it. Outside of that culture these nuances were irrelevant. Middle and upper class people had a completely different set of etiquette markers - as well as more or less obvious d…

So? Doesn’t make it a universal standard. Just an invented shibboleth for a group.

Re: A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)

#397

Post by the_gipsy »

craftkiller wrote: post #377
okanat wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you always get fish served deboned? Cutting it with non-dominant hand sucks, especially more bony ones like trout. For me doing almost anything with my non dominant part sucks, my left hand is 20x less useful.

Fish are gross and smell gross. I don't get them served at all.

So you probably only "cut" Chicken McNuggets and shit like that. Why use a knife at all? Just cut it with the fork sideways.

Re: A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)

#399

Post by rendaw »

ricardobeat wrote: post #304
rendaw wrote: post #146

Hashibashi - does this mean it's okay to place the chopsticks across the top if it's not to show you're finished? I heard that was okay as long as you align them not to point at another person (not across the table). If there's no chopstick rest I'm not sure where else you're supposed to put your chopsticks. Also I'm not sure how you're supposed to eat e.g. fried rice without yokobashi or kakibashi. Also! I thought k…

I think you’re supposed to eat fried rice with a spoon :)

Right, forgot about that! Although I feel like I've definitely been in situations where there were no spoons (izakaya... maybe)

Re: A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)

#400

Post by moron4hire »

sneak wrote: post #368
cthalupa wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is definitely true - but some of these are fairly universal, or at least that is my understanding. I believe the 'no sticking chopsticks upright in rice' one is shared between Japan, Korea, China, etc. for example - it looks like funerary incense/joss sticks in all three due to the shared aspects of their cultures, for example.

I still don’t understand why making my own bowl of rice (being used/eaten by a very much alive person) look like a funeral bowl of rice is a weird or bad thing. So much of this stuff just seems like a social license to shame people.

If you're at home, by yourself, you can belch out loud and eat with your hands and even put your elbows on the table. Literally nobody can stop you.
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