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Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

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Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#391

Post by yellowapple »

ritzaco wrote: post #12

I don't care how much maths and encryption you use, you can't get out of the fact that things can be anonymous (no one can know how you voted) or verifiable (people can prove that you only voted once) but not both. - Switzerland usually gets around this by knowing where everyone lives and mailing them a piece of paper 'something you have' - South Africa gets around this by putting ink on your fingernail I've read qui…

> you can't get out of the fact that things can be anonymous (no one can know how you voted) or verifiable (people can prove that you only voted once) but not both

Seems like the obvious solution here would be for the voting machine to generate two separate records:

- A record of the vote itself, without specifying the voter

- A record of the voter having voted, without specifying for whom/what

And of course, if the number of vote records doesn't match the number of voter records, then shenanigans have likely ensued, warranting an election fraud investigation.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#392

Post by JumpCrisscross »

kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote: post #369
Muromec wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The name is on the list, so the person can vote. Why would you need them to show an id for that? You would need to establish the identity first (which everybody would have anyways, should the US not be a bunch of third world countries in a trench coat), but not eligibility.

So all you need to do is know somebody's name for that voting station. And since we're not checking IDs, when the "right" person shows up, how do we know they're the right person? I have to show ID to get into my local zoo, but not to vote someone onto the board in charge of the zoo. That doesn't make sense.

> when the "right" person shows up, how do we know they're the right person?

That prompts an investigation. The “right” person casts an affidavit ballot and the police and courts investigate. If the count is close, the loser usually sure to recount and verify, and any of these incidents then become political kindling. It doesn’t happen because it isn’t worth it individually and difficult to coördinate en masse.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#393

Post by WalterBright »

lobf wrote: post #320
rayiner wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not saying we have widespread voter fraud. My gut feeling is that we don’t. But I’m a very trusting person. I always believe people when they ask for money on the street because their car broke down. I don’t know how you can confidently say there isn’t meaningful voter fraud. How would you even verify past elections? You can point to millions spent on commissions and lawyers, but those can’t go back and generate…

I think you need to start with proposing how a person could fraudulently vote. If you show up to the polling place, you need to list the name and address of a registered voter in that district. How do you know this information? If you use a relative or acquaintance whose name and address you know they're registered at, when they show up to vote it will be noted that they have already voted. They can then put in their…

In Washington State, to register to vote you have to assert you are a citizen and a resident. But no verification is done on that.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#394

Post by WalterBright »

Muromec wrote: post #358
lobf wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you register to vote, you give your address as well as proof of eligibility to vote. That address is used to assign you a polling place, and also as an additional piece of data needed in order to filter out fakers. Your voting eligibility is checked before being added to the list, which also mitigates fakers. If you're trying to register in someone else's name, you have to pray that they don't register themselve…

So... For each election, I have to register anew and the agency in charge has a backoffice is cross-checking this against... something? I guess they would first look if I was voting the last time? What if my birth certificate or whatever is from a different place. Do they assume I'm not risking using a forgery over politics (it's a fair assumption I would say)?

My original birth certificate was old and had decayed, so I wanted a new one. I googled "how do I get a copy of my birth certificate", followed the instructions, and received a brand new certificate.

(I was a bit concerned because the hospital I was born in had been razed and the whole area redeveloped 50 years ago, but there was no problem.)

A couple weeks ago I went to the nearest DMV and got a RealID. It took 15 minutes. (The RealID is proof of citizenship and residency.)

The DMV people and the people in the passport office are very helpful in how to get the necessary proof.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#395

Post by yellowapple »

Muromec wrote: post #358
lobf wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you register to vote, you give your address as well as proof of eligibility to vote. That address is used to assign you a polling place, and also as an additional piece of data needed in order to filter out fakers. Your voting eligibility is checked before being added to the list, which also mitigates fakers. If you're trying to register in someone else's name, you have to pray that they don't register themselve…

So... For each election, I have to register anew and the agency in charge has a backoffice is cross-checking this against... something? I guess they would first look if I was voting the last time? What if my birth certificate or whatever is from a different place. Do they assume I'm not risking using a forgery over politics (it's a fair assumption I would say)?

> For each election, I have to register anew

No. You register once and that applies to all future elections (at least until you update your registration for whatever reason, e.g. because you changed addresses).

> and the agency in charge has a backoffice is cross-checking this against... something?

Against the state's voter registration database, usually maintained by that state's Secretary of State or equivalent.

> What if my birth certificate or whatever is from a different place.

If the birth certificate is from somewhere within the US, then validating the birth certificate is usually just a matter of contacting the county clerk where you were born. If it's from somewhere outside the US, then you ain't eligible to vote anyway unless you've gone through the process of becoming a naturalized citizen — in which case you'd have more appropriate identifying documents that you'd use in place of your birth certificate.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#396

Post by yellowapple »

alistairSH wrote: post #165
Joker_vD wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have to give your name, and they know if you've voted more than once at that station that day. So you go to other stations, duh. It's called "carousel voting" [0], if done on a large, organized scale. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carousel_voting

Limit voters to one polling location. Problem solved. That's what we do in the US. You are assigned a polling location based on your home address. You can't vote anywhere else. If you try, they turn you away. You can do a provisional ballot (for people who recently moved, and poll data isn't updated, etc) and they validate your ID/address/etc later.

> That's what we do in the US. You are assigned a polling location based on your home address. You can't vote anywhere else. If you try, they turn you away.

That ain't universally true. Here in Nevada you can vote at any polling station (I think within the same county).

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#398

Post by mjevans »

WalterBright wrote: post #390
throwaway85825 wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorting physical ballots is very easy to automate. You get the security of paper with the speed of computing.

In Washington State we get mailed ballots, which we fill in and mail in. But the ballots are not even printed on security paper. They don't have a serial number on them, either.

The filled out ballot is intended to be fully anonymous.

It is then slipped into a security sleeve to make it harder to read within the envelope.

The envelope is sealed and signed by the citizen.

Security is provided by the envelope which is the attestation that the citizen cast their ballot. Offhand, the county voting office is likely required to retain the ballot as part of the state/federal records. I haven't checked but that or a centralized ballot repository are the only things that make sense.

Re: Swiss e-voting pilot can't count 2,048 ballots after decryption failure

#400

Post by brunoborges »

beautiful_apple wrote: post #48
diego_moita wrote: post #3

Meanwhile Brazil does full e-vote for almost 30 years collecting more than 100 million votes (that's 11 times the whole of Switzerland's population). You'll get there Switzerland, it can be done. It is safer and faster.

Brazil's e-voting does not allow voters to vote online from home on a personal computer (like in Switzerland). It has very different requirements. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voting_in_Brazil

This is not a problem.

The government _must_ come to every city to collect votes.

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