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Is legal the same as legitimate: AI reimplementation and the erosion of copyleft

writings.hongminhee.org

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Re: Is legal the same as legitimate: AI reimplementation and the erosion of copyleft

#391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Our foreparents fought for the right to implement works-a-like to corporate software packages, even if the so-called owners did not like it Our "foreparents" weren't competing with corporations with unlimited access to generative AI trained on their work . The times, they're-a-changin'. You're rehashing the argument made in one of the articles which this piece criticizes and directly addresses, while ignoring the en…

I believe the GP post is saying that if we react to the new AI-enabled environment by arbitrarily strengthening IP controls for IP owners, the greatest benefactors will almost certainly be lawyer-laden corporations, not communities, artists, or open source projects. That seems like a reasonable argument. It seems like the answer is to adjust IP owner rights very carefully, if that's possible. It sounds very hard, tho…

The article makes the same point; the quote was taken out of context.

The point the author was making was that the intent of GPL is to shift the balance of power from wealthy corporations to the commons, and that the spirit is to make contributing to the commons an activity where you feel safe in knowing that your contributions won't be exploited.

The corporations today have the resources to purchase AI compute to produce AI-laundered work, which wouldn't be possible without the commons the AI it got its training data from, and give nothing back to the commons.

This state of things disincentivizes contributing to the FOSS ecosystem, as your work will be taken advantage of while the commons gets nothing.

Share-alike clause of the GPL was the price that was set for benefitting from the commons.

Using LLMs trained on GPL code to x "reimplement" it creates a legal (but not a moral!) workaround to circumvent GPL and avoid paying the price for participation.

This means that the current iteration of GPL isn't doing its intended job.

GPL had to grow and evolve. The Internet services using GPL code to provide access to software without, technically, distributing it was a similar legal (but not moral) workaround which was addressed with an update in GPL.

The author argues that we have reached another such point. They don't argue what exactly needs to be updated, or how.

They bring up a suggestion to make copyrightable the input to the LLM which is sufficient to create a piece of software, because in the current legal landscape, creating the prompt is deemed equivalent to creating the output.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

A vibe-coded API implementation created by an LLM trained on open source, GPL licensed code can only be considered one of two things:

— Derivative work, and therefore, subject to the requirement to be shared under the GPL license (something the legal system disagrees with)

— An original work of the person who entered the prompt into the LLM, which is a transformative fair use of the training set (the current position of the legal system).

In the later case, the input to the LLM (which must include a reference to the API) is effectively deemed to be equivalent to the output.

The vibe-coded app, the reasoning goes, isn't a photocopy of the training data, but a rendition of the prompt (even though the transformativeness came entirely from the machine and not the "author").

Personally, I don't see a difference between making a photocopy by scanning and printing, and by "reimplementing" API by vibe coding. A photocopy looks different under a microscope too, and is clearly distinguishable from the original. It can be made better by turning the contrast up, and by shuffling the colors around. It can be printed on glossy paper.

But the courts see it differently.

Consequently, the legal system currently decided that writing the prompt is where all the originality and creative value is.

Consequently, de facto, the API is the only part of an open source program that has can be protected by copyright.

The author argues that perhaps it should be — to start a conversation.

As for who the benefactors are from a change like that — that, too, is not clear-cut.

The entities that benefit the most from LLM use are the corporations which can afford the compute.

It isn't that cheap.

What has changed since the first days of GPL is precisely this: the cost of implementing an API has gone down asymmetrically.

The importance of having an open-source compiler was that it put corporations and contributors the commons on equal footing when it came to implementation.

It would take an engineer the same amount of time to implement an API whether they do it for their employer or themselves. And whether they write a piece of code for work or for an open-source project, the expenses are the same.

Without an open compiler, that's not possible. The engineer having access to the compiler at work would have an infinite advantage over an engineer who doesn't have it at home.

The LLM-driven AI today takes the same spot. It's become the tool that software engineers can and do use to produce work.

And the LLMs are neither open nor cheap. Both creating them as well as using them at scale is a privilege that only wealthy corporations can afford.

So we're back to the days before the GNU C compiler toolchain was written: the tools aren't free, and the corporations have effectively unlimited access to them compared to enthusiasts.

Consequently, locking down the implementation of public APIs will asymmetrically hurt the corporations more than it does the commons.

This asymmetry is at the core of GPL: being forced to share something for free doesn't at all hurt the developer who's doing it willingly in the first place.

Finally, looking back at the old days ignores the reality. Back in the day, the proprietary software established the APIs, and the commons grew by reimplementing them to produce viable substitutes.

The commons did not even have its own APIs worth talking about in the early 1990s. But the commons grew way, way past that point since then.

And the value of the open source software is currently not in the fact that you can hot-swap UNIX components with open source equivalents, but in the entire interoperable ecosystem existing.

The APIs of open source programs are where the design of this enormous ecosystem is encoded.

We can talk about possible negative outcomes from pricing it.

Meanwhile, the already happening outcome is that a large corporation like Microsoft can throw a billion dollars of compute on "creating" MSLinux and refabricating the entire FOSS ecosystem under a proprietary license, enacting the Embrace, Extend, Extinguish strategy they never quite abandoned.

It simply didn't make sense for a large corporation to do that earlier, because it's very hard to compete with free labor of open source contributors on cost. It would not be a justifiable expenditure.

What GPL had accomplished in the past was ensuring that Embracing the commons led to Extending it without Extinguishing, by a Midas touch clause. Once you embrace open source, you are it.

The author of the article asks us to think about how GPL needs to be modified so that today, embracing and extending open-source solutions wouldn't lead to commons being extinguished.

Which is exactly what happened in the case of the formerly-GPL library in question.

Re: Is legal the same as legitimate: AI reimplementation and the erosion of copyleft

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Our foreparents fought for the right to implement works-a-like to corporate software packages, even if the so-called owners did not like it Our "foreparents" weren't competing with corporations with unlimited access to generative AI trained on their work . The times, they're-a-changin'. You're rehashing the argument made in one of the articles which this piece criticizes and directly addresses, while ignoring the en…

Adding even more intellectual property nonsense isn't going to work. The real solution is to force AI companies to open up their models to all. We need free as in freedom LLMs that we can run locally on our own computers.

Force them to open (and host) all their training data. They stole it from the pubic to sell it back to us anyway.

Re: Is legal the same as legitimate: AI reimplementation and the erosion of copyleft

#393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Our foreparents fought for the right to implement works-a-like to corporate software packages, even if the so-called owners did not like it Our "foreparents" weren't competing with corporations with unlimited access to generative AI trained on their work . The times, they're-a-changin'. You're rehashing the argument made in one of the articles which this piece criticizes and directly addresses, while ignoring the en…

Adding even more intellectual property nonsense isn't going to work. The real solution is to force AI companies to open up their models to all. We need free as in freedom LLMs that we can run locally on our own computers.

>Adding even more intellectual property nonsense isn't going to work.

[citation needed]

Where does your confidence come from?

GPL itself was precisely the "intellectual property nonsense" adding which made FOSS (free as in freedom) software possible.

The copyright law was awfully broken in the 1980s too. Adding "nonsense" then was the only solution that proved viable.

Historically, nothing but adding "more IP nonsense" has ever worked.

>The real solution is to force AI companies to open up their models to all.

Sure. Pray tell how you would do that without some "intellectual property nonsense".

We don't exactly get to hold Sam Altman at gunpoint to dictate our terms.

>We need free as in freedom LLMs that we can run locally on our own computers

Oh, on that note.

LLMs take a fuckton of compute to train and to even run.

Even if all models were open, we're not at the point where it would create an equal playing field.

My home computer and my dev machine at work have the same specs. But I don't have a compute farm to run a ChatGPT on.

Re: Is legal the same as legitimate: AI reimplementation and the erosion of copyleft

#394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree there has to be a court case about it. I think the current argument, however, is that it is transformative, and therefore falls under fair use.

You don’t get to simply claim fair use based on how transformative your derivative work is. “”” Section 107 calls for consideration of the following four factors in evaluating a question of fair use: Purpose and character of the use, including whether the use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes: Courts look at how the party claiming fair use is using the copyrighted work, and are more l…

>I haven't claimed anything, The courts did: https://www.whitecase.com/insight-alert/two-california-distr.... And regardless, my point still stands that it is an open question; however, given the already present body of cases, it is tipping in the favor of the AI companies. Also, if thumbnails fall under fair use due to it being transformative of full-sized pictures, I cannot see an argument that AI training on data is somehow less transformative than downscaling an image for a thumbnail.

Re: Is legal the same as legitimate: AI reimplementation and the erosion of copyleft

#395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Legal liability is completely unchanged. It's changed completely, from your own example. If you comission art from an artist who paints a modified copy of Warhol's work, the artist is liable (even if you keep that work private, for personal use). If you commission it from OpenAI (by sending a query to their ChatGPT API), by your argument, you are the person liable — and OpenAI is off the hook even if that work is di…

> If you commission it from OpenAI (by sending a query to their ChatGPT API), by your argument, you are the person liable — and OpenAI is off the hook even if that work is distributed further. Let's distinguish two different scenarios here: 1) Your prompt is copyright-free, but the LLM produces a significant amount of copyrighted content verbatim. Then the LLM is liable, and you too are liable if you redistribute it.…

>So the better analogy is if you rent a Xerox copier to copy something by Warhol

It isn't.

One analogy in that case would be going to a FedEx copy center and asking the technician to produce a bunch of copies of something.

They absolve themselves of liability by having you sign a waiver certifying that you have complete rights to the data that serves as input to the machine.

In case of LLMs, that includes the entire training set.

Re: Is legal the same as legitimate: AI reimplementation and the erosion of copyleft

#396
One main thing that this brings to mind is if an LLM can ever actually create a clean room implementation of a piece of open source software, given that there is a near certainty that the software was used in its training data. Therefore it has seen it and remembered it, and could if appropriately prompted recreate the code verbatim.

This can also apply to people, either if they have seen the code previously and therefore are ineligible to write the code for a clean-room implementation, or it gets murky when the same person writes the same code twice from their own knoeldge, as in the Oracle Java case.

Coming from a professional programming perspective I can totally see the desire to have more libraries written in permissive licences like BSD or MIT, as they allow one like myself to include them in commercial closed-source products without needing to open source the entire codebase.

However I find myself agreeing with the article in so far as this LLM generated implementation is breaking the social contract for a GPL/LGPL based library. The author could have easily implemented the new version as a separate project and there would not have been an outcry, but because they are replacing the GPL version with this new one it feels scummy to say the least.

Re: Is legal the same as legitimate: AI reimplementation and the erosion of copyleft

#397
> Blanchard's own claim—that he worked only from the test suite and API without reading the source—is, paradoxically, an argument for protecting that test suite and API specification under copyleft terms.

Ridiculous. I don't want specifications for proprietary APIs to be protected, and I don't want the free ones to be either. The software community seemed pretty certain as a whole that this would be very bad for competition [1].

Morally, I don't think there's anything wrong with re-implementing a technology with the same API as another, or running a test suite from a GPL licensed codebase. The code wasn't stolen, it was capitalized on. Like a business using a GPL code editor to write a new one.

> This is not a restriction on sharing. It is a condition placed on sharing

Also this doesn't make any logical sense. A condition on sharing cannot exist without corresponding restrictions.

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/mklieg/supreme_cou...

Re: Is legal the same as legitimate: AI reimplementation and the erosion of copyleft

#398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Our foreparents fought for the right to implement works-a-like to corporate software packages, even if the so-called owners did not like it Our "foreparents" weren't competing with corporations with unlimited access to generative AI trained on their work . The times, they're-a-changin'. You're rehashing the argument made in one of the articles which this piece criticizes and directly addresses, while ignoring the en…

Adding even more intellectual property nonsense isn't going to work. The real solution is to force AI companies to open up their models to all. We need free as in freedom LLMs that we can run locally on our own computers.

I agree. But IMHO that ship has sailed. This should have been stop it when OpenAI went for-profit.

If you want to build a new world with out this, we can't do it while we are supporting the very companies that are creating the problem. The more power you give them, the strong they get and the weaker we become.

I think focus needs to shift completely off of for-profit companies. Although, not sure how that is going to happen..lol

Re: Is legal the same as legitimate: AI reimplementation and the erosion of copyleft

#399
post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's different kinds of intellectual property. Copyright might rest on 'creativity is hard'. But patents and trademarks do not.

Trademarks don't, patents do. Different kind of creativity but still.

Patents do to a small extent, maybe. But eg medical patents are a lot about protecting all the 'sweat' you put in, not so much the creativity.
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