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How far back in time can you understand English?

deadlanguagesociety.com

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Re: How far back in time can you understand English?

#391
post #224
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> biwepe(?) Probably beweep; lament, weep over. > pinunge(?) This is explained later on the page. "Where a modern writer would say he underwent torture, a 1200-era writer must say that he suffered pinunge instead." I also couldn't understand this one although the word "pining" did come to mind, apparently not totally off, as that has apparently come from the same ancestor. Didn't help me figure out the intended meani…

In current Limburgs, pinige: to torture. Mien herses pinige: Wrecking one's brains.

surely "paining" is the easiest way to comprehend it

Re: How far back in time can you understand English?

#392
post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In Russia and Ukraine pretty much every child can read by the time they enter the first grade. In the US too, reading is generally handled in Kindergarten, the year before first grade. If your parents didn't teach you before that, like mine did. > Meanwhile, when I was learning English there basically was one spelling rule: memorize. There are rules though, that we're ad-hoc taught as kids, or just absorb through e…

> In the US too, reading is generally handled in Kindergarten, the year before first grade. I keep hearing that students in the US struggle with reading. With something like 60% of students not being able to read proficiently. Inlcuding a truly stunning case of a valedictorian high school graduate who couldn't read: https://www.kktv.com/2025/02/28/former-high-school-honors-st... Or the "whole language" approach to re…

The "whole word" teaching method only got popular in the past few decades and is probably the main cause of stuff like that.

Re: How far back in time can you understand English?

#394
For 1300 the only words I'm not sure of are "swie" and "rewth", although from context they presumably mean something like "silence" and "mercy"

1200 is much harder but I can get maybe 60-75%:

Hit is muchel to seggen all þat pinunge hie on me uuroȝten, al þar sor and al þat sorȝe. Ne scal ic nefre hit forȝeten, naht uuhiles ic libbe!

There is much to say of all that paining he wrought upon me. All that soreness and sorryness. Not shall I ever forget it, not while I live!

Ac þer com me gret sped, and þat was a uuif, strong and stiþ! Heo com in among þe yuele men and me nerede fram heore honden.

Here is where I lose the thread.

A wiff ... wife? witch? waif? woman? ... who is strong and perhaps stiff or some similar word, comes to him with great speed. She comes in among the evil men/man and saves him with her hand. Although I could be way off

Heo sloȝ þe heþene men þat me pyneden, sloȝ hem and fælde hem to þe grunde. Þer was blod and bale inouȝ And hie feollen leien stille, for hie ne miȝten namore stonden. Ac þe Maister, þe uuraþþe Maister, he flaȝ awei in þe deorcnesse and was iseon namore.

Here I can gather a lot more but I'm guessing a lot:

She slayed the heathen man who pained me, slayed him and felled him to the ground. There was a lot of blood and bile and he fell and lay still. For he had no more might to stand. And the maister, the wrathful maister, he fled into the darkness and I saw him no more.

Ic seide hire, “Ic þanke þe, leoue uuif, for þu hauest me ineredd from dæðe and from alle mine ifoan!”

I said to to her "I thank you, lovely waif/wife/witch, for you have saved me from death and from all my (?)"

And then from 1100 I can gather that the waif/witch/woman replies to his thanks and introduces herself as Aelfgifu, which I incidentally know is an old English female name meaning Elf Gift

Any further help?

Re: How far back in time can you understand English?

#395
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, I remember being in Oxford in the 90s and an older man approached me and spoke to me in English and I couldn’t understand a word he said. My ex-wife, who’s an ESL speaker who speaks fluently and without an accent has trouble with English accents in general. Similarly, in Spanish, I find it’s generally easier for me to understand Spanish speakers than Mexican speakers even though I learned Mexican Spanish in s…

I live in London, I can drive a little over an hour from where I live and hardly understand the people working at the petrol station. A few more hours and they start to speak French.

Hmmmm. Which direction are you driving in where you can hardly understand them? I don’t think there’s a regional accent in the whole of the UK that’s “hardly understandable” spoken by anyone under 80 years old, let alone an hour from London. Especially where the conversation isn’t “in group”

Re: How far back in time can you understand English?

#396
post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The continuum of the North Sea languages is much more apparent if you undo the High German consonant shift... (and of course if you minimise the use of the words English have imported from France)

That seems to me like a really worthwhile effort, especially for the continental Europeans if they want to keep the EU alive, even if it needs major, structural reform that I am not confident it can implement without total deconstruction first. If the EU wants to survive it simply cannot allow English to dominate it, nor is even French ideal, making Dutch the official language is of course silly for obvious reasons (…

Trying to put your bizarre ethnonationalism aside, as HN is not the place for that:

Firstly, you're conflating German and Germanic, while ignoring that the common ancestor here dates to before the High German consonant shift between the 3rd and 5th centuries, that further split the German* languages, that had already long since split from the other Germanic languages.

Secondly, my point was merely that there is a closer relationship between the Germanic languages historically spoken around the North Sea, than with modern standard German that has carried with it the consonant shift, and so if you take into account Low German/Plattdeutsch, the similarities are more visible and obvious.

I see no reason to try to mush them together, but it would be interesting to see German take the approach of Norway: Norwegian have had a few fairly successful reforms actually moving it further away from Danish in some respect, but which also in some respects have mean allowing older forms closer to Norse in the majority form of Bokmål, that were retained/included in Nynorsk.

If German did the same thing and started encouraging and allowing those of the forms of minority Low German dialects that are closer to the older Germanic forms (e.g. Dag instead of Tag, for dag/day), it might over time restore some of the continuum.

Re: How far back in time can you understand English?

#397
post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience traveling to the Netherlands as an English speaker is that people are speaking English, but they're drunk!

That's strange (i.e. different from my experience). I've been living in the Netherlands since 2021, speak some (~ B1) Dutch, but good English and German. Dutch language was from day one comprehensible due to German similarity. Many/most words either sound like the German equivalent to the point where you naturally match them in your thought, or they are written (mostly) like the German equivalent. The connection betw…

Written Dutch is fairly easy for me, on the basis of English + native Norwegian + German from school. Spoken Dutch is largely unintelligible for me, on the other hand, unless they speak very slowly.

> In fact, when I first faced the language, I would have said it was a combination of ~80% German, 10% English, 5% French, +5% Others.

But the vocabulary of English itself is majority of Germanic origin. So while Dutch is often closer to the modern German, there's definitely far more than 10% that has a common origin with English as well as German.

Re: How far back in time can you understand English?

#398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a native English speaker who also knows some German and has studied some Anglo-Saxon... I'd say the High German sound shift can really mess up hearing Anglo-Saxon for German speakers but reading it is easier than it might be for a modern English speaker... The orthography of Anglo-Saxon can make it look easier to read for a modern German or Dutch speaker, but to actually hear it could be confusing. Specifically ar…

I dont think reading will be much easier. A modern English speaker - assuming he is well read, will know things like "sooth", "quoth", "art thou", "ere", "sayeth"... I feel knowing this stuff helps me a lot more than cognates of high german "schön" or "wohnen". Actually knowing Tolkien well has been helpful because the way he writes is very anglo-saxon, not so even his word choices but just the rhythm or syntax. But…

> Actually knowing Tolkien well has been helpful because the way he writes is very anglo-saxon, not so even his word choices but just the rhythm or syntax.

In English class at school in Norway, I went through a phase after reading LOTR in Eglish for the first time, where I'd frustrate my teacher by using words that were archaic enough that my teacher had to look them up.

> Old English thinking it would be more like German, but really it is much more like English than people think IMO.

Compare it to Old Norse, and Old Dutch, though, and there are many similarities that stand out. My Norwegian lessons very brief foray into Old Norse definitely made it easier for me to dechipher parts of Old English and Old Dutch (the latter also helped a lot by my halting German). I think a lot of the similarities comes down to learning to recognise a few of the key sound and ortography shifts, at which point they start to look a lot more similar than it looks at first glance.

Re: How far back in time can you understand English?

#399
post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m just ahead of you on episode 200! Just getting into the rise of printing in English. I absolutely agree. This has become my comfort podcast when I just want to decompress.

To suggest another decompression / interesting podcast, "The Fall of Civilizations" by Paul Cooper. I do like the visual episodes he releases later on YT - its not just random stock photos but directly relevant to what's being discussed, but they release awhile after the audio. The audio is splendid as well though.

I’ve listened to a few of these. Agree it’s also really well done.

Re: How far back in time can you understand English?

#400

1400 seems fine except for the one big hurdle being "Þ", which I feel like I'd seen at some point but did not recall. ("ȝ" is useful but that's somewhat easier to guess and not too critical. "ſ" is also easy to guess and I'd seen it before.) 1300 is noticeably harder and needs some iterative refinement, but once you rewrite it, it's surprisingly not too bad: > Then after much time spoke the master, his words were col…

> "Þ"

The way to remember thorn: "Ye Oldee Shoppe". The "Ye" there is "þe" (the), written with "Y" standing in for þ - historically for typographic reasons, and in modern times just repeating that change.

> "ſ" is also easy to guess and I'd seen it before.

It's in use as a long s[1] in other languages too when using Fraktur style fonts in particular. One of Norways largest papers [2] still insists on using it in their header, which led someone I went to school with to insist the name was "Aftenpoften" instead of "Aftenposten" ("Evening Post").

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s

[2] https://www.aftenposten.no/

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