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UPS plane crashes near Louisville airport

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Re: UPS plane crashes near Louisville airport

#391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taking off with one engine inoperative (on a multi-engine aircraft, obviously - you aren't going to get anywhere with your only engine gone) is completely normal/within design parameters, albeit undesirable. In fact, it being normal almost certainly contributed to the scale of this accident, since a single engine failure during the takeoff roll isn't considered enough of an emergency to reject the takeoff at high spe…

> The crew wouldn't have had any way to know that one of their engines had not simply failed, but was straight-up gone with their wing on fire to boot. I don't know about the MD-11 itself, but other aircraft from that time period have sensors to detect and report overheat and fire in various parts of the aircraft, including engines and wings.

I think too many of us are used to movies and TV (and Star-Trek-like scifi) that gives the incorrect view that extremely detailed information about the state of things is available.

The notification in the cockpit is likely nothing more than "ENG 2 FIRE" or similar. That could mean anything from "the fire is minor enough and we're at high enough speed that it's significantly safer to take off and then make an emergency landing", to "the engine has exploded and the wing is on fire and catastrophically damaged, so even though aborting takeoff now is dangerous and will likely cause us to overrun the runway, trying to continue would be worse".

It's a judgment call by the pilot to guess which of these is the case (or any possibility in between), and given the probabilities of various failure modes, I think it's fair for a pilot to assume it's something closer to the former than the latter.

Re: UPS plane crashes near Louisville airport

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay. So you mean in general it would help in some cases. Not that in this case it would have helped. > see UA1175 I'm familiar with the case you are mentioning. I'm also aware that they sent a jump seater to look at the engine. But did seeing the engine provide them with any actionable information? Did they fly the airplane differently than if they would have just seen the indications available in the cockpit?

Yes, the cameras would not have helped here, but it dorsn’t mean they are useless in general. Stupid car analogy: airbags help in most cases, but not all. Are they useless? Regarding UA1175, they had someone extra, but not all flights happen to have someone extra in the cockpit.

> Yes, the cameras would not have helped here, but it dorsn’t mean they are useless in general.

I think that statement needs the support of actual evidence. Air incident investigation agencies make detailed reports of the causes of crashes, with specific, targeted recommendations to help ensure that similar incidents don't recur.

If we haven't seen recommendations for cameras like that, then I think it's reasonable to assume that the actual experts here have determined that cameras would not be helpful.

Re: UPS plane crashes near Louisville airport

#393
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing about it reads as AI to me. I'm not even the commenter and I take offense when people suggest that knowledgeable, helpful HN comments are AI.

I see now that it probably wasn't, but "nothing" is an overstatement. And knowledgeable and helpful responses can be AI, so there might be a fallacy somewhere in your offence-taking. Are you offended when people do that in general, or only when they are wrong? I do appreciate the effort put into writing a good comment.

> but "nothing" is an overstatement

Absolutely not. There was genuinely nothing in their thoughtful and informative reply that seemed AI generated to me. Have you never seen people on HN write detailed, articulate answers? This was one of them.

Asking a question, getting a helpful response, and then implying it was written by AI is quite rude. Saying, "Excuse me if not, $SOMETHING_VERY_OFFENSIVE" does not make "$SOMETHING_VERY_OFFENSIVE" any less offensive! It's disheartening to see someone take the time to write a great answer only to be met with such a rude question. Please don't do that here. It's frustrating and discourages genuine contributors.

Re: UPS plane crashes near Louisville airport

#394
post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NTSB is completely independent from the FAA, by design. The history of how that came to be is worth a read and answers your question better than I could. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Transportation_Safety...

You can't play with the NTSB. Just wait a few months and see, they will literally say the exact reason it happened and who's the one to blame in their report. These guys are the best at what they do. This is one of the government bodies other countries would dream to have.

The NTSB never assigns blame to people in their reports. They report what happened, and who did what, but their reports are not intended for use in a court and their advisories are always ways to fix procedures rather than blaming individuals.

Re: UPS plane crashes near Louisville airport

#395
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s roughly a mile of roads, green spaces, and river between the airport and downtown San Jose which an absolutely identical accident would impact. It’s not very wide, but pilots aren’t going to aim for buildings if they can help it. So while downtown being in the flight path is a risk there was some method to the madness which caused that alignment.

San Diego's airport, on the other hand, has the a bustling restaurant district, an interstate with frequent bumper-to-bumper traffic, and a dense residential neighborhood all within a mile off one end of the runway -- and a popular shopping area, an elementary school, and a high school within just over a mile from the other end. In addition, the terrain rises in both directions (so sharply on one side that planes can…

The fact that San Diego operates essentially downtown with a single runway is a marvel, even if it does cause issues. I hope they get the tram extension one day.

Re: UPS plane crashes near Louisville airport

#396
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>None? Nobody puts airports inside city centers and metro areas don’t just have dense urban housing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midway_International_Airport It's hard to project growth. Things build right up to the limit of the airport for convenient access, then the area grows and the airport needs to grow - and what do you do? Seattle-Tacoma is critically undersized for the traffic it gets and has been strugglin…

Zoning is one option to direct growth, but you can move airports. Chicago is right next to a Great Lake and there’s relatively shallow areas ready to be reclaimed etc. Obviously you’re better off making such decisions early rather than building a huge airport only to abandon it. Thus it’s called urban planning not urban triage.

There’s a real convenience to an airport not being 50 minutes away

Re: UPS plane crashes near Louisville airport

#397
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zoning guidance generally prohibits land use near an airport that has a high density of people, precisely to limit casualties during an event like this. Industrial would be permitted while residential and commercial use is not. Scarily there are communities that have ignored such logic and permitted dense residential development right next to an airport.

Jets are also simply too loud for homes under the takeoff path in standard use. There’s what amounts to a ghost town next to LAX due to this and the history of the airport. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palisades_del_Rey,_California Burbank Airport has quiet hours and has left a bunch of commercially zoned area under that takeoff path. I’m in Atlanta now and they bought up a lot of land around the airport when redeve…

I just looked that up (Atlanta) on https://noise-map.com/ and man, that's way not enough zoning tricking in my book. Not that it's much different in other cities (or countries).

Re: UPS plane crashes near Louisville airport

#398
post #78
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

V1 is the speed at which you can still stop the plane before the end of the runway. (It is computed for each takeoff based on runway length, aircraft mass, takeoff engine power setting, flaps, wind, runway condition, etc.) When the plane reaches V1, pilots take the hand off the throttle: they're committed to takeoff, even if an engine fails. It is better to take off and fix the problem or land again, than to smash in…

Isn't there any margin? Does it calculate stopping before end of runway or before causing damage? Surely uncertainty about the situation contributes to defaulting to committing, but what if it's a passenger plane and at V1 pilots know they've lost power? Wouldn't veering into highway at 30 mph be weighted against certain, big loss of life? Edit: I now see that this has been partially answered by uncle comment

> Wouldn't veering into highway at 30 mph be weighted against certain, big loss of life?

V1 for this plane in those conditions is nearly 200 mph. Even if they shut down all engines and applied full brakes (and assuming the brakes/tires didn't catch fire), they'd still run off the end of the runway with enough kinetic energy to kill themselves and anyone else in the way.

Re: UPS plane crashes near Louisville airport

#399
post #232
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What an intensely rude thing to say to someone who has been providing specialist knowledge in a very deep technical field up and down this page.

[flagged]

Maybe we should just stop commenting about whether or not something is AI generated. It doesn't add anything to the discussion, and is a waste of time.

An apology (in advance or afterward) doesn't absolve you of responsibility. And if you feel the need to apologize for something in advance, that's a huge clue that maybe you should stop yourself from doing the thing you've just apologized for.

Re: UPS plane crashes near Louisville airport

#400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the cameras would not have helped here, but it dorsn’t mean they are useless in general. Stupid car analogy: airbags help in most cases, but not all. Are they useless? Regarding UA1175, they had someone extra, but not all flights happen to have someone extra in the cockpit.

> airbags help in most cases, but not all. Excellent. So in what cases does seeing the engine visually do help? So far we discussed UPS2976 and UA1175 where the presence or absence of the camera didn't change the outcome. > Regarding UA1175, they had someone extra, but not all flights happen to have someone extra in the cockpit. You are dancing around my question. What does the pilot do differently based on what they…

> So far we discussed UPS2976 and UA1175 where the presence or absence of the camera didn't change the outcome

To be fair, the presence of a camera might have changed the outcome of UPS2976. Depending on when the fire developed fully, rejecting the takeoff based on the sheer size of the fireball on the wing might have led to fewer casualties on the ground. This is of course under the assumption of a world where a camera feed is a normal part of the flight deck instruments and there is a standard for the pilot monitoring to make judgments based on it.

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