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German government comes out against Chat Control

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Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#391

Post by kakacik »

Parae wrote: post #323
notrealyme123 wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please clarify how people in Germany are unfree and unsecure now. Last time I checked we had free votes and I could say that I hate Merz.

Being free to vote doesn't make you feel free and secure. It's not even safe to attend to a protest to ask for a ceasefire in Gaza. So yeah, you can say "I hate Merz", but don't even try to say "Free Palestine"...

But its never just 'free palestine' or 'stop the war', is it. Its always mixed with 'from river to the sea', mixed with calls for hatred towards jews, sometimes even jewish genocide.

Extremists doing what extremists can, which is being extreme as a default. Don't expect much support from public, and greta's gradual slide to political extremism isn't helping much, most people are fed up with her and her persona just poisons topics with... extremism.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#392

Post by modo_mario »

the_gipsy wrote: post #322
Xelbair wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's distinction between legality, reality and morality. Most of the time no one uses full formal legal terms in normal conversation. I don't support AfD, I'm not German either - i just agree with parent poster's observation that for some reason left extremism(and I'm talking actual eco-terrorism for example) is more widely 'accepted' in public space when talking to Germans. Meanwhile mentioning even slightly Righ…

People that vote and support the far right do it as reaction, that is likely. But not to "extreme left nonsene" appearing. That's just a pretext. The real reason, to which they react, is that they can no longer covertly express and exercise their ideas. In other words, it's a reaction to getting publicly called out about being racist, misogynistic, homophobic, xenophobic etc.

I believe the far right starts winning when it attracts not just the types it naturally attracts all the time but more mid field folks as well. People who you don't get to your side by saying they're facists or other accusatory statements.

I've heard plenty of times from such people that they've felt the government/establishment parties have made my bordering country less safe for women, gay people, etc and now numbers are also starting to show that. Pair that with those parties targeting those votes more and more and bringing in some more gays and women into the party and labels of mysoginist or homofobic that you used don't work to attack the far right anymore I've found gay people voting for the supposedly homofobic far right because they start to see their main talking points as a long term existential matter. Prisons that have a huge share of non nationals and are overfilled so prison strikes and shutdowns happen aren't helping either. The economical picture for non-eu migration has been abysmal too. The list goes on and on.

Even in france le pen who's father had some well known extreme views about gays she draws a lot of votes among gay men. Especially in Paris.

At that point you seriously, seriously fucked up.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#393

Post by gambiting »

selfmodruntime wrote: post #384
gambiting wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, correct me if I'm wrong - but according to this random website I found in 5 seconds of googling: https://www.expat.hsbc.com/expat-explorer/expat-guides/germa... The highest band of income tax in Germany is 45% and obviously that's only on any amount over the threshold - so even if you make that much money your effective tax rate will be closer to 30% than 50%. So unless I'm missing something - I don't see how G…

> Well, correct me if I'm wrong - but according to this random website I found in 5 seconds of googling: I will, because you are! Unfortunately, it's really easy because the German government applies a simple slight of hand. They call it a "gross employer contribution", which increases this band of income tax beyond the 45% you pay after the GEC. [1] It works like this: As your employer is paying your wage, amount X,…

I mean sure, but does that actually add up to over 50% of your income? Here in the UK it works exactly the same as you described, but the NI is 10% of your income - even if you are in the highest band for incomne tax(also 45%) you wouldn't get to 50% overall, maybe if you make millions a year that average would start getting close to 50% (and if you do, congrats!)

And can I comment on the fact that Germany seems to be incredibly generous with their bands - the 45% band only kicks in at 280k euro, so like maybe 0.00001% of all workers are in that band? Here in the UK you start paying 45% from £125k and up.

Anyway - the reason why I'm asking is because UK taxes and social obligations seem to be crazy high as it is, but even they won't get you to 50% total, not unless you literally make millions in income per year.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#394

Post by saubeidl »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #388
anonzzzies wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Globalist views didn't lead to positive results? Until very recent no one was complaining: everything was going up and everyone got better. Now it goed a little less and the underbelly starts whining. And of course people do believe misinformation. People who got a yearly raise over the inflation correction for a decade and now 'only' got inflafion correction whining its the globalist issue because some guy on tiktok…

>Until very recent no one was complaining: everything was going up and everyone got better. The stock market, and your housing and investment portfolios going up, didn't mean that everyone was happy, just the asset holders like yourself and those in your bubble but you're not majority of the working population. You need to learn to differentiate between "the stock market" and "the economy". Working class people can e…

We've argued a lot on this platform before, but I fully agree with your post this time.

-- a young-ish person flirting with communism.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#395

Post by slightwinder »

xt84 wrote: post #378
slightwinder wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFDs operation-mode is to be always against the government and most others, so usually they are always debating against it, just because.. And in their case its far more than the usual playing opposition, they often switch even on their own stances. Additionally, this is something that would be in their ideological background. I guess they just fear to become victims themselves.

How can you write this when the other parties have a cordon sanitaire (Brandmauer)[0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordon_sanitaire_(politics)

How is that related? The other parties are not defining their opinions based on AFDs stance. Brandmauer only means they are not working with them, if it can be avoided, not they have to be different on everything. And most parties will have a different stance from the AFD naturally, simply by the fact that AFD are far right fascists.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#396

Post by bluebarbet »

jasonvorhe wrote: post #62
shevy-java wrote: post #45

This is strange, because not long ago it was Germany (!!) that pushed heavily for mass-sniffing of people. I don't trust this. People should watch very, very carefully what Germany is actually doing next. I would not be surprised if the mass-sniffing comes in a few months when nobody is looking.

Germany will not abandon chat control just like the data perseveration they're so keen on. Europe is preparing for war so they need ways to make opposition more difficult. They're just waiting for the opportune moment where the opposition to these acts won't be as organized or is distracted with something else.

There are plenty of places to post this kind of vacuous, nihilistic, unsourced conspiracism. Please, not here.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#397

Post by onli »

selfmodruntime wrote: post #374
notTooFarGone wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be our guest and enlighten us with citations!

1 second google search -> https://www.die-linke.de/partei/programm/ -> Marx's manifesto is cited among the first paragraphs -> the literal first sentence in point 3's second paragraph -> "Our goal of democratic socialism in the 21st century is a society free of domination in which all people can live in dignity." They mention the process of transforming capitalism to state mandated socialism and control of all compan…

It's a little bit harder. The problem is that the SPD will also talk about democratic socialism and does indeed just mean social capitalism with that. And depending on who you talk with at the left, there is still the idea to use the power of capitalism, just to remove the negative aspects with various means.

But indeed, the program now does distance itself from social capitalism specifically and gives further reasoning to why. I wasn't aware they spell it out so clearly now. We can still argue about how much capitalism would be left when following their program - like when the means of production are owned differently, but used similarly - but I have to give you a point there. My comment as written was not correct.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#398

Post by nickslaughter02 »

munksbeer wrote: post #311
voldacar wrote: post #183

The EU tries something like this every few years. If you don't want this to happen, you have to win every time, while they only have to win once. It's an unsustainable situation.

Every thread on this I have to post the same thing, which I hope will make people inform themselves, because we need our attention to be directed at the correct people. > The EU tries something like this every few years. This is NOT the EU trying it (I'm not even sure you know what you mean when you say "The EU"). This is certain groups of politicians from certain EU member states raising it again and again. Please k…

This IS eu trying it since late 2021. The original proposal was adopted by the lead european commissioner Ylva Johansson in May 2022 and the commission has been trying to find support for it in the council ever since.

‘Who Benefits?’ Inside the EU’s Fight over Scanning for Child Sex Content (https://balkaninsight.com/2023/09/25/who-benefits-inside-the...)

Undermining Democracy: The European Commission’s Controversial Push for Digital Surveillance (https://dannymekic.com/202310/undermining-democracy-the-euro...)

1. maladministration: Ombudsman regrets Commission approach to access to documents request concerning EU legislation on combatting child sexual abuse (https://www.ombudsman.europa.eu/en/news-document/en/189565)

2. maladministration: Decision on how the EU Agency for Law Enforcement Cooperation (Europol) dealt with the moves of two former staff members to positions related to combatting online child sexual abuse (case 2091/2023/AML) (https://www.ombudsman.europa.eu/en/decision/en/200017)

Please keep yourselves informed, don't spread an incorrect message, because this is an important issue to fight and needs accurate information.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#399

Post by selfmodruntime »

jacomoRodriguez wrote: post #390
selfmodruntime wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment has been debunked countless times. This man's home was not raided for his antisemitism (which is really damn bad!) but for calling a guy an idiot [1]. I suggest you stop spreading lies. [1]: https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/nach-schwachkopf-post-p...

Please don't paint an - given wired and unjust - incident as the norm and not as am exception. Extrapolation from one local incident to Germany is unfree is like extrapolation from one politically motivated murder, that a country is in a civil war...

Sure, I have painted the incident, let‘s paint the norm. Just two ministers of the last government have sued 1400 people using 188 StGB [1]. An FDP politician sues 250 people this way in a month alone. We have seen an increase of lawsuits using this paragraph of 215% in the last three years.

[1]: https://verfassungsblog.de/ehre-wem-kritik-gebuhrt/

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#400

Post by varispeed »

egeozcan wrote: post #244
varispeed wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reaction is very weak, though. Chat Control is an act of terrorism and it should have triggered criminal investigation why this has gone this far. Before you downvote: If terrorism is defined as using violence or threats to intimidate a population for political or ideological ends, then “Chat Control” qualifies in substance. Violence doesn’t have to leave blood. Psychological and coercive violence is recognised i…

I actually upvoted this. It's a well-argued comment, but I'm not convinced. My sticking point is the word "terrorism" itself. Words are defined by how we collectively use and understand them, and the common understanding of terrorism involves bombs and bullets, not software and surveillance. I get your logic, however. You're breaking down the definition into intimidation for political ends, and you're not wrong that…

Fair point - but that’s mainly a reflection of how power defines language. The word terrorism was never limited to bombs; it was coined during the Reign of Terror in revolutionary France to describe state violence used to intimidate the population.

We’ve since normalised it to mean only non-state actors with weapons, while the organised psychological violence of governments gets rebranded as “policy.” The fact it’s done by men in suits, with forms instead of grenades, doesn’t make it less coercive - only more efficient and socially acceptable.

If a law deliberately instils fear in civilians to secure political obedience, it meets the core definition. The method evolved; the principle didn’t.

Also part of the reason it doesn’t feel like terrorism to many is bias. We’ve been conditioned to picture terrorists as outsiders with explosives, not officials with conference badges.

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