Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

simonhartcher.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

391–400 of 541 posts

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#391

Post by bzzzt »

saratogacx wrote: post #141
terribleperson wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it just works on MacOS, but it's prone to all kinds of breakage on Windows.

That's because MSFT doesn't really do hibernate any more but does "modern sleep" where it functions like a phone with the screen off. It keeps active network connections, downloads patches and keeps checking for notifications and other such nonsense. BIOS support for proper hibernation has been getting worse too because with MSFT demanding it, there is little reason to continue support. I've had older laptops that do…

That's because the goal is not to have functional hibernation, but to start up faster. If the goal can be achieved by using less power instead of shutting down the whole machine and restoring it identically and that's easier it's a valid alternative.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#392

Post by [deleted] »

charcircuit wrote: post #369
vladvasiliu wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think there’s much framework can do about this. The same happens with Windows on HP and Dell laptops, except windows tends to quickly enter hibernation (if it doesn’t somehow hang and burn up your bag). We used to have better suspend before, when s3 was thing, on both Linux and windows. Maybe not as great as Macs, but way better than the current shitshow. Now I’m not saying pcs are great hardware, but I think…

>I don’t think there’s much framework can do The MacBook is an existence proof that there is something they can do.

[deleted]

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#393

Post by izacus »

heavyset_go wrote: post #214
izacus wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is - a lot if power saving is achieved by hybrid sleep (computer hibernating after a timeout). Setting that up is pure hell on Linux, with poor documentation and security people actively fighting against making this easy. On Windows/macOS it just works, on Linux you'll probably break secure boot with it.

You edit one line in a file to enable hybrid sleep. Uncomment one line in /etc/systemd/sleep.conf: AllowHybridSleep=true Your Linux installer will also set everything up needed for it. It's also a GUI option in KDE's System Settings.

I wish it would be this simple.

In most cases your kernel will tell you it's "locked down" and refuse to hibernate. In my case - on a cutting edge kernel no less with Fedora - it refused to believe that the default disk encryption setup with Swap on encrypted LVM actually is encrypted and locked me out.

Linux security bros followed Apple and others here and refused to add any ability for us to configure or tell kernel that it's wrong about that and to fscking allow resume.

This stuff just works out of the box on both macOS and even the mess that is Windows.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#394

Post by bzzzt »

izacus wrote: post #390
bzzzt wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mac M series don't do hibernation, probably because sleep has so little impact on battery life (my MacBook lasts for about a month in sleep mode) and Apple doesn't like to burden users with questions like 'what sleep mode to use'.

That's just plainly not true. Apple calls it "Safe Sleep" ( https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/mac-help/mh10328/mac ) and you get a progress bar when it wakes from it. Yes, even on magical Ms.

Interesting, never heard of that specific mode before. Does it save the entire RAM or just the OS state and open files?

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#395

Post by voltaireodactyl »

pm215 wrote: post #91
mschaef wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Mac Desktop is vastly inferior to the Linux world Asking out of curiosity, why is this? What's the functionality you miss on Mac?

The one I have always missed is proper focus-follows-mouse support. The mac desktop always feels really clunky without that when working with multiple windows.

FWIW, this is now possible albeit with a third party app: https://github.com/sbmpost/AutoRaise

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#396

Post by aiisthefiture »

Throwaway123129 wrote: post #366
maverwa wrote: post #17

The complaint about power usage in suspend is especially sad because it’s pretty much a common problem for Linux on laptops. Not sure if that’s what applies here, but the numbers about match what I see with my Framework. Basically: if you want to use secure boot you usually also want kernel lockdown mode, and you cannot hibernate a lockdowned kernel. At least not without out-of-tree patches. IMHO that’s a giant issue…

This is not a Linux issue (Though the hibernate issues are!). It's a PC issue. Microsoft went on a crusade making hardware vendors implement S0 next to S3 but most hardware vendors now _only_ implement S0. So that the laptop can keep phoning home and download updates etc whilst closed. Which means it's impossible to turn off the CPU during suspend. it's always on. PC as a laptop platform is a complete joke.

Microsoft is not to blame for Linux’s abysmal battery lift. Linux has never ever had good battery life. It’s the only issue preventing me from replacing my MacBook.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#397

Post by ajjahs »

charcircuit wrote: post #369
vladvasiliu wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think there’s much framework can do about this. The same happens with Windows on HP and Dell laptops, except windows tends to quickly enter hibernation (if it doesn’t somehow hang and burn up your bag). We used to have better suspend before, when s3 was thing, on both Linux and windows. Maybe not as great as Macs, but way better than the current shitshow. Now I’m not saying pcs are great hardware, but I think…

>I don’t think there’s much framework can do The MacBook is an existence proof that there is something they can do.

[dead]

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#398

Post by PhilipRoman »

yehat wrote: post #353
trinsic2 wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anybody know why their so hell bent on removing S3?

My thinking is that Microsoft is basically the most influential in that, as they badly want to do their "stuff" while the laptop is not in use. Their "stuff" requires network connectivity and seemingly they believe they can do updates, or any other "optimizations" when the laptop is in "modern sleep" mode.

I'm surprised this required implementing a whole new sleep mode. Since it seems to be mostly used for async background tasks, why not configure the RTC to wake the laptop every hour or so (I think every laptop in existence already supports suspend with timeout) and go back to suspend if no tasks need to be done?

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#399

Post by charcircuit »

mcny wrote: post #376
charcircuit wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don’t think there’s much framework can do The MacBook is an existence proof that there is something they can do.

Does Framework operate at the same abstraction level as Apple? I thought because of scale, Apple can dictate terms from its suppliers to get everything custom. I would imagine Dell, Lenovo, and HP simply don't care enough and Framework and System 76 and the like don't have enough scale to get custom parts or custom code from vendors?

It's up to Framework what level they work at. If they want to make a competitive product rather than just throwing together what currently exists will dictate what they need to do. I would think it would be in Dell, Lenovo, and HP's interest to compete against Apple, but Framework shouldn't let others software that they should have bad suspend functionality.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#400

Post by yonisto »

I'm using Framework with Windows and AMD and I have excellent hibernate/sleep time... It is really a Linux thing. I remember a post on reddit that claims that the Bluefin distribution has excellent battery life.

It amazes me how the legend of ARM being more efficient than x86 took hold. I'm not saying that we don't have a more efficient ARM processors BUT it has nothing to do with the ISA. What you gain with a simple encoder (ARM) you gain with code density (x86) and after that it is converted to microcode. You wouldn't gain more than single percent if any.

Process node is by far more important (5nm , 3nm, etc) and usually Apple gets access to them first. Also placing the memory in the CPU package also proved to be great for efficiency (case of point is Intel's Lunar lake that can last like forever) and last but the least is the intergraded GPU that no one seems to talk about and their respective efficiency (cause there are like 30 people in the whole world that can truly make and educated talk about them and their ISA)

Post reply on HN