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Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

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Re: Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

#391

Post by mathgeek »

somenameforme wrote: post #382
Adverblessly wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak to other countries, but here in Israel at least, religion is highly correlated with number of children. Focusing on jewish women, fertility rates for different levels of religion in 2021-2023: Ultra-orthodox 6.48 Religious 3.74 Traditional-religious 2.81 Traditional, not so religious 2.20 Not religious, secular 1.96 So naturally over time the religious portion of the population grows.

And this follows globally - fertility is one of the most interesting and critical issues of our time. It's going to change the future in ways most absolutely do not appreciate. On this topic most people see the world as inevitably becoming more secular because that's how society has trended during most of our lives, so it seems almost like a natural law. Yet even fertility alone means that society will almost certain…

> It'll be a local max, not a global max.

There really isn’t any way to know this for a fact. The future could hold technology that allows us to expand far beyond the current population, but it also could lead to setbacks that the population never recovers from. It is reasonable to guess it’s a local max.

Re: Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

#392

Post by renewiltord »

im3w1l wrote: post #348
renewiltord wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IQ polygenic score companies do exist. Just look at the circle around Jonathan Anomaly and you likely will find them all. I know of a couple that are going to go full open this year. You have to be of the right genetic origin because of the source data, but the truth is it's very risky to do embryo editing. It's hard to tell which way things will land. For all we know, gametogenesis may arrive first. And if that happ…

> You have to be of the right genetic origin because of the source data Can you explain what this means? After thinking it over, the most plausible reading to me is that they think the results will not generalize to other origins than the ones they have data for?

You’ve got it right.

Re: Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

#393

Post by derektank »

exegete wrote: post #304
derektank wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correcting what is essentially a developmental defect (albeit a defect that occurs in the germ cells rather than in the womb) isn't eugenics. It's not caused by any genes carried by the parents, it's caused by a failure in the development process, specifically meiosis. Would preventing fetal alcohol syndrome be eugenics? It's caused by changes in gene expression from alcohol exposure after all.

Are you suggesting that by aborting a fetus with Down Syndrome, the fetus is then cured of Down Syndrome? You’re not really correcting the developmental defect insomuch as eliminating the fetus that had the defect.

The context here is that there's evidence crispr CAS-9 can be used to repair damage to the genome by specifically targeting and deleting the extra third chromosome inside a living cell. I don't know why you'd assume I'm talking about abortion.

Re: Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

#394

Post by shafyy »

Thorrez wrote: post #259
shafyy wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Most communist countries haven't been such a utopia as you describe. >He told his fellow Russians in his entourage that if their people, who often must wait in line for most goods, saw the conditions of U.S. supermarkets, "there would be a revolution." https://www.chron.com/neighborhood/bayarea/news/article/When...

I am not talking about communism. Nobody on today's political left spectrum of is seriously talking about communism. This is about socialism, or social capitalism.

Re: Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

#395

Post by smeej »

advisedwang wrote: post #173
smeej wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many ethicists value the continuation of someone's--anyone's--(literal) life over the continuation of anyone else's life style. I'm not arguing whether you should or shouldn't agree with them, nor saying anything about in which cases. It's just one of the primary things going on in the minds of those people, and you said you wondered.

Down screening is done at like 16 weeks. At 16 weeks that's hardly a life. Also you are being very dismissive by hand-waving away lifestyle. Quality of life is a significant factor in medical decisions. Many people choose short high-qol lives over longer low-qol lives.

I'm not doing any such thing. I'm just answering what's in the minds of many ethicists.

Re: Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

#396

Post by shafyy »

jajko wrote: post #310
shafyy wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

I should have said "should have...", maybe this was not clear. I am not claiming tha there's a "perfect" country. Some countries come pretty close though, where you have affordable public transportation, affordable housing and affordable health care. For example and Germany and Switzerland (two countries where I have lived for long periods of time), nobody will die because they can't afford health care. Nobody will be homeless because they can't afford an apartment (yes, I know, there is also homelessness in these countries, but for a variety of other reasons).

Doe that mean it's perfect? No, of course not, there is always room for improvement.

Re: Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

#397

Post by smeej »

frotaur wrote: post #319
Thorrez wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a unique living organism. A life. Different from a skin cell which isn't a unique organism.

Yes, but that is not a good arguments. Example of unique living organisms include bacteria, tardigrades, or paramecia.

Yes, but none of those are of the human species. A Hunan zygote is a unique living human organism, and I think history has shown us we must at least be very, very careful when we start arguing that some unique living human organisms are different enough from the unique living human organisms that matter that it should be morally acceptable to kill them.

Maybe this really is different from all the things about which we've later lamented, "Never again!" but we certainly ought not consider that criterion easily satisfied.

Re: Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

#398

Post by smeej »

pseudo0 wrote: post #183
smeej wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are a couple: - Parents: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3353148/pdf/nihms37... - People who have DS: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3740159/pdf/nihms37... - Siblings of people with DS: https://doi.org/10.1002/ajmg.c.30101

> A valid and reliable survey instrument was mailed to 4,924 households on the mailing lists of six non-profit Down syndrome organizations. Definitely no sampling bias here... And given that the vast majority of people who do prenatal screening decide not to have a child with Down Syndrome, I don't think the people who choose to have a Down Syndrome child are really representative of prospective parents as a whole. T…

The perspective in question is about what it's like to raise a child with Down Syndrome.

Why on EARTH would the opinions of people who were so scared of the experience that they never tried it at all even for a minute be relevant to that perspective?

Re: Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

#399

Post by smeej »

UltraSane wrote: post #190
smeej wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surveys consistently indicate that people with DS, their family members, and people who know them consider their lives better because of it. That's a benefit.

Please provide evidence of your claim.

- Parents: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3353148/pdf/nihms37...

- People who have DS: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3740159/pdf/nihms37...

- Siblings of people with DS: https://doi.org/10.1002/ajmg.c.30101

Re: Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

#400

Post by derektank »

shlant wrote: post #360
derektank wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correcting what is essentially a developmental defect (albeit a defect that occurs in the germ cells rather than in the womb) isn't eugenics. It's not caused by any genes carried by the parents, it's caused by a failure in the development process, specifically meiosis. Would preventing fetal alcohol syndrome be eugenics? It's caused by changes in gene expression from alcohol exposure after all.

people should stop accepting that all forms of eugenics is "bad" - it's become so morally loaded that people like you are afraid to bite the bullet. We should be ok with having discussions about whether avoiding bringing children into the world with greatly reduced quality of life (or even pain-filled existences) is something we should be doing even though it's "eugenics"

I actually think it's reasonable to accept terms as they are if their definition has a long history. If eugenics means a system of forced sterilization intended to unfairly prevent certain people from having kids, (and it has for over half a century) that's fine. I can come up with another term to refer to practices such as embryo screening and we can all agree that eugenics was a very bad thing and would be bad if we tried to bring it back in the future. What I object to is then using a very loaded term outside of that original context to smear people that are making very hard choices, like parents trying to conceive a healthy child
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